Possible indictment over Russian collusion

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Pepe
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18 Sep 2021, 9:43 pm

TenMinutes wrote:
Summary of this case:

Evidence of Trump collusion with Russia was compiled as "opposition research" for the benefit of the Clinton campaign, and had the FBI known that (some would say they did, and were politically motivated to overlook the source) they would have checked the worthiness of the source before acting on the "intel".

Summary of "Russian interference":



It wouldn't surprise me of the Russian attempt to influence the Amerian election process, but I haven't come across any convincing evidence of Trump's collusion with the Russians.
I have, however, seen suggestions that government agencies and the left-wing media attempted to pervert the Truth.
Same old same old. :mrgreen:

However, it has become clear to me also that Tump's naivety/ineptitude in political dealings and understanding what can or shouldn't be said, ethically complicated the investigation from his side also.
Keep in mind, politics on both sides with take advantage of any indiscretions wherever they may be found, obviously.

The skunk has made his assessment. 8)


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DW_a_mom
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18 Sep 2021, 9:58 pm

Pepe wrote:
The difference is, the Truth trumps any political affinity I may have, hence my political nomenclature of being a moderate conservative centrist *Independent*.


Wrong. I’ve seen you avoid the truth when it is hitting you in the face. I think that both you and I are TRYING to get at the truth and call things honestly, but the grace of admitting that seems to only go one way, from me to you. Instead, you call it a personality conflict while continuing to sneak in swipes against me that make it clear you refuse to acknowledge all the attempts I make to get to the truth, wherever it leads. That isn’t just a personality conflict.

When I challenge you I do to your face, not behind your back. Disagree on the facts behind my back, but don’t call my character into question. There was no way to doubt, btw, to whom you were referring even if you did leave off names. You quoted me and one other person, then spoke to that person about who to ignore.

I don’t know when you decided to take issue with me, but it seems pretty clear you did, and honestly it took me by surprise, given that I thought you wanted to get at truth and all I had done before our first conflict was challenge a few of your facts. You could have just challenged back on the facts like I expected you to.

I don’t dislike you or your contributions. I disagree at times, but that is what discussion is for. What I don’t know is what got you from A to Z. I can accept that it’s where you are at, but I will call you out on the unfair swipes.

I stand up for myself and I stand up for the truth as I see it. Neither will change.


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 18 Sep 2021, 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DW_a_mom
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18 Sep 2021, 10:11 pm

TenMinutes wrote:
Trump is what happens when the entire establishment elite pulls out all the stops to elect a Clinton, AND SCREW IT UP.


There is a lot of truth to that. It was insanely obvious that TPTB had decided she was the candidate. What was always less obvious was why. Giddy over getting the first black president and determined to have the first woman? Hard to be sure, but there sure were a lot of blinders on.

I can’t get on board with Sanders, however. He just isn’t that strong a leader. When it comes to practical, hands on, getting things done, he is a mess. His role to me has always been more inspirational, and he excels at that.


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DW_a_mom
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18 Sep 2021, 10:34 pm

Quote:

It wouldn't surprise me of the Russian attempt to influence the Amerian election process, but I haven't come across any convincing evidence of Trump's collusion with the Russians.


Agreed.

Of course, the Mueller investigation also didn’t really look for any; that was outside its scope.

Innocent until proven guilty.

And I’d honestly rather not believe a president had intentionally colluded with an adversarial nation.

(Had to remove quote name due to coding error I couldn’t find, sorry)


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 18 Sep 2021, 11:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Brictoria
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18 Sep 2021, 10:37 pm

Fnord wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Russia successfully did exactly what it set out to do: get us fighting each other and destroy faith in our political system. The evidence is all around you.
It is hard for some people to see the evidence for the problem when they are part of it.

The worst examples of this are those who go out of their way to attack and demonise others for having the "wrong" political views\opinions, rather than thrying to understand why those people have the views they do and trying to explain what is wrong with them\show them better alternatives.

And of course, there's no guarantee that this aggressive group's political views\opinions are the best available, either.


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TenMinutes
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18 Sep 2021, 11:57 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
It was insanely obvious that TPTB had decided she was the candidate. What was always less obvious was why.


It's not so much that TPTB chose her, as other plutocrats chose not to run against her. It's the job of TPTB to make sure both parties run an acceptable plutocrat. That's why MSNBC helped defeat Sanders. We would do well to figure out which candidate TPTB are pulling for, and reject them outright.

In 2020 they wanted Harris. When that didn't work they chose Buttigieg. When it became clear he wasn't going to prevent Sanders from sweeping the early primaries, they backed Biden.

We should have rejected all three.

Trump showed that the republican party does not have adequate defenses against a populist candidate. But the Democratic party chair at the time (friend of and former campaign chair to Clinton) said explicitly that the purpose of the Democratic superdelegates were to prevent a populist candidate from winning the nomination.

Did you know the primaries aren't actually elections and the parties aren't obligated to hold them at all?

DNC Lawyers Argue DNC Has Right to Pick Candidates in Back Rooms



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19 Sep 2021, 1:37 am

TenMinutes wrote:
Trump showed that the republican party does not have adequate defenses against a populist candidate. But the Democratic party chair at the time (friend of and former campaign chair to Clinton) said explicitly that the purpose of the Democratic superdelegates were to prevent a populist candidate from winning the nomination.


Do you think that's a feature or a bug? I've recently been doing some reading about the political changes in the 60 and 70s, and how both parties switched from the proverbial smoke filled rooms to more open primaries after their voters kept rejecting their chosen candidates (Goldwater on the Right and McGovern on the left were products of this dynamic), and both went down in flames. I'm not sure how I personally feel on the people choose vs the parties choose with regards to their candidates, both options seem to result in terrible choices, as last year amply demonstrated.


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DW_a_mom
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19 Sep 2021, 2:38 am

TenMinutes wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
It was insanely obvious that TPTB had decided she was the candidate. What was always less obvious was why.


It's not so much that TPTB chose her, as other plutocrats chose not to run against her. It's the job of TPTB to make sure both parties run an acceptable plutocrat. That's why MSNBC helped defeat Sanders. We would do well to figure out which candidate TPTB are pulling for, and reject them outright.

In 2020 they wanted Harris. When that didn't work they chose Buttigieg. When it became clear he wasn't going to prevent Sanders from sweeping the early primaries, they backed Biden.

We should have rejected all three.

Trump showed that the republican party does not have adequate defenses against a populist candidate. But the Democratic party chair at the time (friend of and former campaign chair to Clinton) said explicitly that the purpose of the Democratic superdelegates were to prevent a populist candidate from winning the nomination.

Did you know the primaries aren't actually elections and the parties aren't obligated to hold them at all?

DNC Lawyers Argue DNC Has Right to Pick Candidates in Back Rooms


Each party has a right to choose it owns process for selecting a presidential candidate. It's the reason California has open primaries for pretty much everything BUT presidential elections. Neither the Republicans or the Democrats would agree to it.

I'll go backwards and say the whole nomination process and the electoral college system is bothersome to me at this point in our history. Changing any of it is tough for the obvious reason, but I personally think ranked choice voting might be the best proposal.

I felt in 2016 like we saw two completely opposite party nomination approaches both backfire. Trump would never have risen like he did if the field had been much smaller, and Hilary would have made fewer mistakes if she had been forced into more of a fight in the primaries.


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Dox47
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19 Sep 2021, 3:14 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
I felt in 2016 like we saw two completely opposite party nomination approaches both backfire. Trump would never have risen like he did if the field had been much smaller, and Hilary would have made fewer mistakes if she had been forced into more of a fight in the primaries.


Agree about Trump (also, no one took him seriously until it was too late), less sure about Hilary, we've seen her on the national stage for decades, she's always been terrible at politics.


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19 Sep 2021, 4:01 am

Dox47 wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I felt in 2016 like we saw two completely opposite party nomination approaches both backfire. Trump would never have risen like he did if the field had been much smaller, and Hilary would have made fewer mistakes if she had been forced into more of a fight in the primaries.


Agree about Trump (also, no one took him seriously until it was too late), less sure about Hilary, we've seen her on the national stage for decades, she's always been terrible at politics.


She kind of has, but the biggest blunders in the campaign were ego/hubris, not personal presentation, IMHO. And then there is the whole question of it we really are capable of electing a woman as president, but that would be too much to debate.

I should say that she apparently absolutely excels in small group settings, however. Everyone I know who has met her in person has left in complete awe of her. These are not all easy people to impress. There is something there that simply doesn't translate to a big stage.


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19 Sep 2021, 9:24 am

Dox47 wrote:
TenMinutes wrote:
For the record, I voted against Trump in both elections. What really bothers me is we don't have a second-term President Sanders, because MSNBC, CNN, NYT and Wapo are the propaganda arm of the Democratic party. Trump is what happens when the entire establishment elite pulls out all the stops to elect a Clinton, AND SCREW IT UP.

Oh, and there's this...

They Always Wanted Trump - TLDR Clinton wanted Trump as her opponent


Finally, someone who gets it.


It's so much easier to blame a foreign country than analyze the real problems that brought us here.


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DW_a_mom
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19 Sep 2021, 8:02 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
TenMinutes wrote:
For the record, I voted against Trump in both elections. What really bothers me is we don't have a second-term President Sanders, because MSNBC, CNN, NYT and Wapo are the propaganda arm of the Democratic party. Trump is what happens when the entire establishment elite pulls out all the stops to elect a Clinton, AND SCREW IT UP.

Oh, and there's this...

They Always Wanted Trump - TLDR Clinton wanted Trump as her opponent


Finally, someone who gets it.


It's so much easier to blame a foreign country than analyze the real problems that brought us here.


It isn't an either or proposition. We can't ignore the involvement of the Russians and other foreign powers in elections across the world simply because there are also more homegrown issues creating problems in our elections. I realize it kind of goes hand in hand, A feeds B and B feeds back to A, but that also makes it even more important not to discount any side of the triangle.


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20 Sep 2021, 12:33 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
TenMinutes wrote:
For the record, I voted against Trump in both elections. What really bothers me is we don't have a second-term President Sanders, because MSNBC, CNN, NYT and Wapo are the propaganda arm of the Democratic party. Trump is what happens when the entire establishment elite pulls out all the stops to elect a Clinton, AND SCREW IT UP.

Oh, and there's this...

They Always Wanted Trump - TLDR Clinton wanted Trump as her opponent


Finally, someone who gets it.


It's so much easier to blame a foreign country than analyze the real problems that brought us here.


It isn't an either or proposition. We can't ignore the involvement of the Russians and other foreign powers in elections across the world simply because there are also more homegrown issues creating problems in our elections. I realize it kind of goes hand in hand, A feeds B and B feeds back to A, but that also makes it even more important not to discount any side of the triangle.


When I think of all the misinformation we receive from domestic sources that are deemed "legitimate " (CNN, Fox, MSNBC) it hard to imagine Russia had any measurable effect on our election. It's just a few shovel fulls of garbage onto the already mountain of garbage we're wallowing in.

The Russia hysteria is very dangerous, and quite similar to the Mccarthyism of the 50s, (which could the first good example of "cancel culture" in modern times.)


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20 Sep 2021, 2:55 pm

MaxE wrote:
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.amazon.com/Russia-Hoax-Illicit-Hillary-Clinton/dp/0062872745&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjahuqyqo7zAhValmoFHQrAC4YQFnoECAUQAg&usg=AOvVaw1Ze14SyBe1y9k9EJxuf-1y
This is another fun read.



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20 Sep 2021, 8:26 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
TenMinutes wrote:
For the record, I voted against Trump in both elections. What really bothers me is we don't have a second-term President Sanders, because MSNBC, CNN, NYT and Wapo are the propaganda arm of the Democratic party. Trump is what happens when the entire establishment elite pulls out all the stops to elect a Clinton, AND SCREW IT UP.

Oh, and there's this...

They Always Wanted Trump - TLDR Clinton wanted Trump as her opponent


Finally, someone who gets it.


It's so much easier to blame a foreign country than analyze the real problems that brought us here.


It isn't an either or proposition. We can't ignore the involvement of the Russians and other foreign powers in elections across the world simply because there are also more homegrown issues creating problems in our elections. I realize it kind of goes hand in hand, A feeds B and B feeds back to A, but that also makes it even more important not to discount any side of the triangle.


When I think of all the misinformation we receive from domestic sources that are deemed "legitimate " (CNN, Fox, MSNBC) it hard to imagine Russia had any measurable effect on our election. It's just a few shovel fulls of garbage onto the already mountain of garbage we're wallowing in.

The Russia hysteria is very dangerous, and quite similar to the Mccarthyism of the 50s, (which could the first good example of "cancel culture" in modern times.)


I hadn't considered that.
Good point. 8)


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If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


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