Column: Larry Elder is the Black face of white supremacy.

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Dox47
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22 Sep 2021, 7:08 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

I've never read that book, but I do see the pain racism causes in the eyes of associates of mine. If a racist action is never accepted as one, how is anyone supposed to end that pain?


Well, this would be a much simpler issue if certain academics hadn't muddied up the definition of racism so much that we need 15 pages of debate every time someone claims something is or is not racist. I'm old school, for something or someone to be racist there needs to be an element of racial superiority/inferiority being claimed, none of this "power plus prejudice" or other tricky garbage intended to make it so racism is a one way street, a club that can only be swung in one direction.

DW_a_mom wrote:
I don't know for sure if Trump was actually racist, but he had no trouble using racist dog whistles to make his points and rile up voters. In Kraichgauer's example, there was NO VALID POLICY REASON for Trump to draw the line as he did besides to signal that he considered our immigrants to be "less than," knowing full well that most of our immigrants are people of color. Even if he did not intend that "less than" to create images of racism, it most certainly was intended to create an image that all men are NOT created equal. The second you move into "all men are NOT created equal" territory, you open the doors on racism.


Like with most things involving Trump, I think this was a matter of style vs a matter of substance, his policies were well within the mainstream, but he said the quiet parts out loud or more crudely than we're used to hearing them, which some people found refreshing in a politician. This is an issue I frequently have with liberals, putting style before substance, as if the record numbers of people deported by Obama were irrelevant because he didn't say mean things about them as he did it, or that his drone strikes on US citizens were fine because he was less embarrassing on the world stage than W was.

DW_a_mom wrote:
It isn't the fault of liberals that conservatives are more likely to dog whistle support of inequality; the idea that some people are better than others and, thus, should hold greater power in decision making, is historically baked into the ideas of movement conservatives. Note I am intentionally being specific to movement conservatives.


Are they though? I'm always amazed by this concept of dog whistling, as liberals are frequently the only ones who seem to hear them.

DW_a_mom wrote:
In the area of racism, a lot of liberals aren't taking the time to actually understand the issues involved and will default to virtue signalling without doing the work to actually make any difference at all. Or, sometimes, to engage in racist actions while sticking a different banner on the activity. Hence we can end up with "Karen's" who act with obvious racism on video while no doubt believing they aren't racist, either. Those people are getting called out, too. It isn't just conservatives.


You mean like progressives policing the opinions black people are allowed to have?

DW_a_mom wrote:
I have a simple question: do you want to be part of the solution of ending racism, or do you not?


Depends on whose definition we're using, but either way, it's not my all consuming passion, not everyone needs to be an activist on all issues.

DW_a_mom wrote:
It is easy to say liberals like to hide behind the word instead of engaging in honest debate on policy differences, but do you actually think about if those policy differences could be racist?


Do you ever consider that the policy preferences of liberals are often just a different flavor of racism, the soft bigotry of low expectations kind being the most prevalent?

DW_a_mom wrote:
Do you think about how you use words and how those words might be felt by a person of color?


No special treatment, treating people of other races as if they're so fragile that a careless word could shatter their psyche is in fact racist. Why would I treat a strong, resilient people who have come through many hardships with kid gloves, unless I don't really believe they're a strong and resilient people?

DW_a_mom wrote:
Does it bother you that people of color feel the sting of racism every single day, and do you agree that we, as a nation, need to work on ending that in order to live up to our constitutional ideal of acting from the baseline that all men are created equal?


As long as we're talking about equal treatment, yes, when we veer off into "equity" or some other voguish term for equality of outcome is when you lose me.

DW_a_mom wrote:
Not every accusation of racism is a dishonest way to cover up a difference of opinion.


But enough of them are that many of us on the right simply dismiss them out of hand, boy who cried wolf style. Maybe you should focus your ire on those on your own side who so overuse the accusation that they've effectively worn it out? That would be more productive than trying to scold us for no longer reacting to this particular barb.


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Dox47
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22 Sep 2021, 7:50 pm

This is where I'm at on race:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/0 ... -race/amp/

Quote:

Thanks to the rise of identity politics and growing political polarisation, the politics of race has come to play an increasingly important role in mainstream public life over the past decade. The issues of race and racism now dominate the national conversation.

However, at the same time there is a growing opposition to the politics of race. Some writers and thinkers, like Kmele Foster or Thomas Chatterton Williams, are seeking to redirect the conversation about race. They don’t want simply to oppose racism, or to critique identity politics. They want to do away with the notion of race altogether. Their rallying cry is, ‘Abolish race!’.

Race abolitionism poses a challenge to both racism and modern forms of ‘anti-racism’. It is predicated on several core claims. First, race abolitionists argue that the social construct of race is based on a taxonomy invented to create and reinforce racial hierarchies. Therefore, to continue to affirm the meaning and existence of race will inevitably perpetuate racial hierarchies.

Secondly, race abolitionists contend that the concept of ‘race’ is scientifically and socially unsupportable. Unlike ‘sex’, which describes the material reality of the divided reproduction function of a given species, the concept of race has no such material, biological basis. That’s why its meaning is constantly shifting. For example, ‘mixed race’ people often consider themselves to be black, and at one time in the not too distant past, all non-white people were considered black. At the same time, several people who we now consider as unquestionably ‘white’ (for example, Irish or Italians) were once regarded as less than totally ‘white’.

And thirdly, race abolitionists argue that the perpetuation of the notion of race is in direct opposition to humanism and universalism. By dividing human beings into broad racialised categories, and institutionalising those categories in the form of quotas, ‘positive discrimination’ schemes, ‘black-only’ spaces and so on, identitarians reify race and racialise social life.


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22 Sep 2021, 8:09 pm

auntblabby wrote:
it is no use when the other side refuses to come clean.


A rather ironic statement, since there is fault on either side, here. 8)

Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
it is no use when the other side refuses to come clean.


I know. I gotta still speak the truth.


With my permission.
I need to vet what *you* think the Truth is.

The Oracle of Truth has spoken. 8)



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22 Sep 2021, 8:14 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
^^^
I don't think we liberals ever said all Republicans were fascists, just the Trump cult.
Actually, no, the far racist right deny that they're racists, as they know society has changed too much for that to be popular now. But through use of innuendo and veiled code words, voter suppression based on race and class is justified, as is the roll back of civil rights protections.
Trump was a wannabe right wing strongman, like his buddy Putin. The fact that Trump played up on nationalism, with it's nativistic biases toward non-white immigrants (he wanted to know why we only had immigrants from "sh*t hole countries," and not from someplace like Norway... y'know, where they're all white), while demonizing the press, and so on, says Trump was at least comfortable with fascism.

Terms like "Fascist" and "Racists" is used as virtual synonyms by the Left for anyone they disagree with politically. Especially conservatives. It is strait out of Saul Alinski's book Rules for Radicals.


A lot on the left seem to, yes.
And Saul Alinski has a lot to answer for, imo.

This is a form of de-humanisation that the original Nazis did, which is extremely ironic. :mrgreen:



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22 Sep 2021, 8:21 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

I've never read that book, but I do see the pain racism causes in the eyes of associates of mine. If a racist action is never accepted as one, how is anyone supposed to end that pain? I don't know for sure if Trump was actually racist, but he had no trouble using racist dog whistles to make his points and rile up voters. In Kraichgauer's example, there was NO VALID POLICY REASON for Trump to draw the line as he did besides to signal that he considered our immigrants to be "less than," knowing full well that most of our immigrants are people of color. Even if he did not intend that "less than" to create images of racism, it most certainly was intended to create an image that all men are NOT created equal. The second you move into "all men are NOT created equal" territory, you open the doors on racism.



As an aside, since you used Orwells quote, "Animal Farm" was a criticism of communist ideology.
Ouch! 8O



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22 Sep 2021, 8:23 pm

auntblabby wrote:
i hear crickets........................


"I see dead people..." 8O

DW_a_mom wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
i hear crickets........................


That’s how I feel about most of my posts. What does it say about me?


I dunno.
Your posts are too long and involved? :scratch:



Pepe
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22 Sep 2021, 8:27 pm

auntblabby wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
i hear crickets........................


That’s how I feel about most of my posts. What does it say about me?

perhaps that you express opinions that the right wingers either don't grok or don't agree with? i know the feeling, believe you me.


#tag Metoo. 8)



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22 Sep 2021, 8:39 pm

League_Girl wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
i hear crickets........................


That’s how I feel about most of my posts. What does it say about me?



That you are right and being very logical here and pointing out facts so of course people are going to be speechless because how can they defend themselves against that?


I know *that* feeling also. :mrgreen:

League_Girl wrote:
This is where white fragility comes in, when racism is pointed out, instead of learning about it, they get defensive and act like they have been attacked and insulted and bullied.


The way Isabella, Slyfox and I were attacked and bullied, you mean?

League_Girl wrote:
From what I have noticed people who are racist will be justifying it and explaining it to make it sound like why they are not racist.


Personally speaking, I think we all tend to be racist tribalist by nature., but some have been so indoctrinated that they can suppress it better than others.

If, however, one chooses a path of greater enlightenment and becomes aware of our darker side, (Freud would call it the ID), there are greater challenges involved that complicate things.

My grandpappy skunk used to say:
"Life is simple for simple people." 8)

League_Girl wrote:
And yeah there will be people out there that will play the race card but that never works.


It used to work very well.
Not so much these days, as Borat might say. 8)

Image



Dox47
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22 Sep 2021, 8:46 pm

League_Girl wrote:
This is where white fragility comes in, when racism is pointed out, instead of learning about it, they get defensive and act like they have been attacked and insulted and bullied. From what I have noticed people who are racist will be justifying it and explaining it to make it sound like why they are not racist.


This is called a Kafka Trap, when defending yourself from a charge makes you guilty of that charge, "of course she's a witch, only a witch would deny being a witch!".


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22 Sep 2021, 8:51 pm

Pepe wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
it is no use when the other side refuses to come clean.


A rather ironic statement, since there is fault on either side, here. 8)

Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
it is no use when the other side refuses to come clean.


I know. I gotta still speak the truth.


With my permission.
I need to vet what *you* think the Truth is.

The Oracle of Truth has spoken. 8)


What my heart and mind says it is.


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22 Sep 2021, 8:56 pm

Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
This is where white fragility comes in, when racism is pointed out, instead of learning about it, they get defensive and act like they have been attacked and insulted and bullied. From what I have noticed people who are racist will be justifying it and explaining it to make it sound like why they are not racist.


This is called a Kafka Trap, when defending yourself from a charge makes you guilty of that charge, "of course she's a witch, only a witch would deny being a witch!".


I assume "Kafka trap" is a reference to his book, The Trial. It's been some time since I've read that book.
Side note*: the book is actually unfinished, with whole sections never written, but with a conclusion just the same.


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22 Sep 2021, 9:02 pm

Dox47 wrote:


It takes two to tango. This type of stance puts all the burden on PoC to "not see race" when in reality blacks still have barriers
- affordable housing (financial barriers and redlining)
- move into white majority schools (parents often practice white flight)
- move into white majority neighborhoods (again white flight)
- getting into college (financial barriers)
- getting jobs (professional reluctance to hire black graduates)
- walking in public (putting up with karens and kens)
- getting stopped by cops
- making friends (black people face barriers making friends with white people/accepted into social groups/clubs/associations)
- dating (the Sydney Poitier movie guess who's coming home for dinner was made in the 1960s but white parents still harbour fears their kids are going to come home with a date who's a PoC.)



Last edited by cyberdad on 22 Sep 2021, 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Brictoria
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22 Sep 2021, 9:03 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
it is no use when the other side refuses to come clean.


A rather ironic statement, since there is fault on either side, here. 8)

Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
it is no use when the other side refuses to come clean.


I know. I gotta still speak the truth.


With my permission.
I need to vet what *you* think the Truth is.

The Oracle of Truth has spoken. 8)


What my heart and mind says it is.


So, not something objective true, merely a personal opinion masqueraded as "The Truth"...



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22 Sep 2021, 9:07 pm

Brictoria wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
it is no use when the other side refuses to come clean.


A rather ironic statement, since there is fault on either side, here. 8)

Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
it is no use when the other side refuses to come clean.


I know. I gotta still speak the truth.


With my permission.
I need to vet what *you* think the Truth is.

The Oracle of Truth has spoken. 8)


What my heart and mind says it is.


So, not something objective true, merely a personal opinion masqueraded as "The Truth"...


One's opinions can and often are based on what one sees as true.


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Dox47
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22 Sep 2021, 9:19 pm

cyberdad wrote:
It takes two to tango. This type of stance puts all the burden on PoC to "not see race" when in reality blacks still have barriers
- affordable housing (financial barriers and redlining)
- move into white majority schools (parents often practice white flight)
- move into white majority neighborhoods (again white flight)
- getting into college (financial barriers)
- getting jobs (professional reluctance to hire black graduates)
- walking in public (putting up with karens and kens)
- getting stopped by cops
- making friends (black people face barriers making friends with white people/accepted into social groups/clubs/associations)
- dating (the Sydney Poitier movie guess who's coming home for dinner was made in the 1960s but white parents still harbour fears their kids are going to come home with a date who's a PoC.)


What part of "I believe race is made up" are you having a hard time understanding?


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cyberdad
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22 Sep 2021, 9:37 pm

Dox47 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
It takes two to tango. This type of stance puts all the burden on PoC to "not see race" when in reality blacks still have barriers
- affordable housing (financial barriers and redlining)
- move into white majority schools (parents often practice white flight)
- move into white majority neighborhoods (again white flight)
- getting into college (financial barriers)
- getting jobs (professional reluctance to hire black graduates)
- walking in public (putting up with karens and kens)
- getting stopped by cops
- making friends (black people face barriers making friends with white people/accepted into social groups/clubs/associations)
- dating (the Sydney Poitier movie guess who's coming home for dinner was made in the 1960s but white parents still harbour fears their kids are going to come home with a date who's a PoC.)


What part of "I believe race is made up" are you having a hard time understanding?


Just saying, you want MLK's dream to come true, then wh***y needs to share in some of the heavy lifting as well...