Why there should be unions and workers' protections

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Do you feel unions should be revived?
Yes 69%  69%  [ 11 ]
No 31%  31%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 16

roronoa79
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29 Nov 2022, 10:13 pm

A working class without unions is just a mob of self-interested drones waiting to be divided and conquered.

"Unions can become corrupt". Any institution can become corrupt. Any institution, anywhere. To me this is like saying that we shouldn't have democracy because democracies can and have become corrupt.

Democracy is inefficient. Democracy is messy. Democracy slows decision making. Democracy often leads to bad decisions. Democracy requires bureaucracy. Democracy is often corrupt. Democracy does not care about market forces.
But we accept democracy anyway, because without it we are (even more than we are now) politically powerless. Unionizing is just democratizing the workplace. Without democracy in the workplace, we are powerless in the workplace. We are just serfs without the job security. Hostility to democracy in the workplace often translates to hostility to democracy elsewhere...


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aghogday
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30 Nov 2022, 1:37 am



The Farther A Society Falls Into Putting Money
And Stuff First Over Humanity The Farther 'They'

Fall From Humanity

That's Just Common Sense...

i Feel Very Fortunate to Have Been Able

to Find A Federal Civil Service Position And

Retire at A High 3 Pay Grade, NF-04 Equivalent
to an O-4 Marine Major; Yes, Retiring Early After

25 Years of Service Through A Series of Unfortunate

Mostly Stress Related Life Threat in Synergy of 19 Disorders;

Including the Worst Pain Known to Humankind Type Two Trigeminal

Neuralgia From Wake to Sleep For 66 Months, No Drug Would Touch As

a Shut-in At Home Mostly in my Bedroom Eventually Finding my way to

The 'Wrong Planet' After 33 Months of No Effective Use of Eyes or Ears With

All that Pain
And Numb

Associated With All Those
Disorders That May Also be
Associated With Autism Burnout
Similar to 'General Adaptation Syndrome' too...

Indeed, Jobs With Union and Other Worker's Protections

Like Lifelong Benefits Through and Through That Come

With Federal Jobs And Other State, County, And City Protected

Jobs Along with Union Protection Associated With Private Business

Are A Real Savior Through Both Advantages of Job Security That Allow

Abilities to Purchase Homes Early Plus Benefits That May Save Your Butt

When Health Related Conditions Come You Had No Idea Even Exist Or Anyone

You Know as Yes Any Day or Minute of the Week "Stuff" Can And Will Hit the "Fan."

i Escaped 'The

Fan' And Lived

In Large Part BE
CAUSE OF FEDERAL

BENEFITS THAT ARE DESIGNED

TO MAKE LOYAL EMPLOYEES

LIFE LONG FOR THE EXPERIENCE THEY BRING

TO THE JOB TO CONTINUE TO GET THE JOBS DONE.

My Sister Was Able to Retire in Her 50's Because of

Union Supported Retirement Funds Associated With

Federal Military Contract Support for the Navy Station i Worked on Too.

She Was Also Able to Retire at 55 as 'Obama Care' Came Along in "Perfect

Timing" Too as Life Long Health Care in Retirement Was Not Part of Her Benefits.

On The Other Hand, if She had Waited Another Year the Rules Changed Where Instead

of Retiring After 30 Years of Service, Age 65 Was the Earliest one Could Retire with Lifelong

Benefits;

Fortunately,

i Was Protected By

Federal Law All The Way Through

That also Brings me 100 Percent Retirement

Benefits at Age 62, Just Like if i Had Kept Working for Almost 40 Years

As Yes Cost of Living Increases Kept Accruing For the Last Almost 15 Years

Since i Actually Worked for Pay; Yes That's Truly Amazing And A Human

Way to Treat What Feels Like Being A Valued Employee; It wasn't Easy to

Make it Through 25 Years; Particularly in Reductions in Force And Truly Forced
into 5 Job Change And Promotions in the Last 5 years Working For Pay And Into the

Last Year and A Half on Annual And Sick Leave Still Accruing my High 3, Until i Officially

Retired Early at Age 49

As i Did What it Took to

Keep the Golden Federal

'Hand-Cuffs' of Employment;

Life is A Lot Different When You'll Never

Have to Worry About Money again As Cost of
Living Benefits Come For the Rest of Your Life too;

Along With Full Life and Health Insurance for the Rest
of Your Life and Your Spouse too as Well for 50 Percent

of Your Monthly Benefits of Pay if You Pass Away in Retirement.

Federal, State, And Local Government Jobs With Benefits This Way

Work Particularly Well With Marginalized Folks in Society; Particularly, Those

Who Don't Know How to Master the Art of Sticking in the Social Work Politics

Circles 'Normally'

Required to Get

Ahead and Even

Keep A Job As That
Will Be Extremely Challenging

Particularly in a "Good Old Boys"

Network of Work too; True, Unions May

Protect Sub Par Performance Employees; Yet

That's How Life Goes Anyway Without Unions

If You Are A Gambling Buddy of the Boss Anyway

or Hunting and Fishing Buddy or Whatever Other Social

Circle You Do Or Do Not Fit into Get Ahead or Even Get to Stay.

We aRE A Democracy; We May Choose A Society Based on Humanity

Or All on

Getting

More Money
And Stuff for
Folks Who Rise

High Enough to Do that

Trampling on the More

'Common Humans' Around

Us And Or Marginalized Folks too...

Humanity Does Better Than Just Focusing on Money and Stuff...

For This is A Fact, The Farther Away We Move From Caring About Each Other

Humanly

It's A Simple

FACT OF Feelings

And Senses of Emotions

too, The Farther We Move Away

From Humanity or Even the Ability

to Regulate Our Emotions, Integrate Our Senses

For Even Basic Cognitive Executive Functioning as

That/This Pertains to Focus And Attention Span; Long Term

Retrieval of Memories, And Short Term Working Memory too;

Keep People

In A State of
Distress And

Fear and Lose

All Real Productivity
And Creativity For what

It Takes for Any Human

Group or Individual to Truly Survive and Thrive....

Yes, Clue:

Be More Human;

Elon Musk is a To Do

List oF ALL of What Not to Do

To Be A Manager of Other Human Beings...

Perhaps A.I. Might Work Out As Slaves For Him...

In Some Ways

Perhaps Humans
Without Lives that

Are Warm and Human

Will Be Willing to Be

Performative Slaves This

Way; Particularly, if Their Visa's

Are Gonna Expire And Stuff Like that;

Sad When That Is What Motivated Many of them

to Come Here; To be Treated More As Full Human Beings for Freedom...

Anyway in Some Ways i'm Still Just Another NumBeR to the Office of Personnel

Management As They Owe me Quite A Bit of 'Dough' IN Back-Pay Since my 62nd
Birthday on 6.6.60 That is Only Increasing and Protected By Federal Law as They

Say They May Be
Late Yet they
Only Have
20 Weeks By The
End of This Month
To Get It Correct; Yes,

Again, It's Nice to Be
Protected For What In
Some Places Have Become
A Dog Will Eat Other Dog Ways of Life..:)



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Dox47
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30 Nov 2022, 5:46 am

Aspiegaming wrote:
Most big businesses don't want to pay higher wages even though they make more than enough money to afford them.


All businesses pay as little as they can get away with, it's how they stay in business, as the point is to turn a profit, not function as an employment bureau.

Aspiegaming wrote:
You don't like unions and yet I don't hear you giving an alternative that will guarantee protection of workers' rights and benefits.


False dilemma, as I have a much more limited view of what "rights" you have as a worker beyond stuff like a safe environment and such.

Aspiegaming wrote:
So let's hear it. What is your solution? Big businesses aren't willing to pay high wages and benefits and they own the government therefore don't expect them to help so what should be done?


Stop expecting private businesses to do the job of the government, i.e. see to the welfare of the people, it's literally not their jobs. In your particular case, also take a basic economics class.


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kraftiekortie
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30 Nov 2022, 5:48 am

I understand the business owner’s viewpoint as well. Especially small businesses.

Just like I can understand the views of some (especially) small-time landlords who have delinquent tenants so that (the landlords) might not meet their own mortgages.

Even some of the owners agree that unionized workers who make a liveable wage are more productive than when they make a crap wage with no benefits.

There are many people who are homeless despite working sometimes two or more jobs.



auntblabby
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30 Nov 2022, 6:17 am

businesses/employers work people to death/disability in this country. literally. amazon works its slaves to exhaustion. in the uncivil service they worked us so hard and fast there were always accidents, i've been in more than a few. gone are the days when an employee was just expected to do his own job. i was expected to do several people's jobs. it resulted in adrenal exhaustion. the AFGE [American Federation of Gov't Employees] was a fig leaf that kept the absolute worst abuses from happening, but not nearly enough. strikes are the only weapon the workers have, and we AFGErs were disarmed. if the rethuglicans [as expected] push to force the train employees back to work and force them to accept a crap contract, it would be par for the course in this country, "land of the unfree, home of the wage-slave."



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30 Nov 2022, 6:50 am

Unions are half-efforts at Socialism, which is the economic system wherein the workers own the means of production and share in the profits.

A union shop is still a Capitalistic workplace, albeit with another layer of bureaucracy between the workers and management. This layer works for itself, playing labor and management against each other and collecting benefits from both (e.g., pay from the workers, power from management).

Sure, there would likely be no Middle Class were it not for unions, and the decline in the Middle Class correlates with the decline in unions; but is there really a causal connection?


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r00tb33r
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30 Nov 2022, 7:06 am

Fnord wrote:
A union shop is still a Capitalistic workplace, albeit with another layer of bureaucracy between the workers and management. This layer works for itself, playing labor and management against each other and collecting benefits from both

Exactly my thoughts.



auntblabby
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30 Nov 2022, 7:32 am

my union was half a loaf. half a loaf is still better than no loaf.



Aspiegaming
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30 Nov 2022, 8:27 am

Dox47 wrote:
Aspiegaming wrote:
Most big businesses don't want to pay higher wages even though they make more than enough money to afford them.


All businesses pay as little as they can get away with, it's how they stay in business, as the point is to turn a profit, not function as an employment bureau.

Aspiegaming wrote:
You don't like unions and yet I don't hear you giving an alternative that will guarantee protection of workers' rights and benefits.


False dilemma, as I have a much more limited view of what "rights" you have as a worker beyond stuff like a safe environment and such.

Aspiegaming wrote:
So let's hear it. What is your solution? Big businesses aren't willing to pay high wages and benefits and they own the government therefore don't expect them to help so what should be done?


Stop expecting private businesses to do the job of the government, i.e. see to the welfare of the people, it's literally not their jobs. In your particular case, also take a basic economics class.


You misunderstand. The corporations own the government therefore THE GOVERNMENT will not lift a finger to help workers. Workers want good pay, good working conditions, paid leave whether sick or hurt, workers compensation, maternity leave, reasonable work hours, over time pay, vacation days, health plans, dental plans, etc. We should stop focusing on the profit motif and start using that extra money to fund all this. Why start a business in the first place? Was it to create jobs? Was it to provide goods and services? Or was it to just make money, a LOT of money, ALL of the money, hoard that money for the CEO? Is money really all there is?


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QuantumChemist
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30 Nov 2022, 8:46 am

At my previous place of employment (large university), there was a union for professors and staff. It cost $400+/month to join. I passed because it would not protect me in my non-tenured position. They only protected fully tenured professors from termination. Literally I would have been paying $400+/month for nothing but saying I joined a “club”. If I wanted to do that, I could just join a local country club. Same effect, but with better benefits.

I see unions as being quite corrupt overall.



ezbzbfcg2
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30 Nov 2022, 8:51 am

Union jobs can actually be hell for an Aspie. You have the job protection, but a select group of NTs want to get rid of you because you're weird. Can't get you fired outright, so they make your life on-the-job hell. Workplace mobbing ensues.



kraftiekortie
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30 Nov 2022, 9:34 am

I’ve been on my union job over 40 years. There were a few attempts to fire me. Fortunately, as a civil service worker, I had both the civil service laws and the union on my side. And my work was good enough to prevent the “mobbing.”

Obviously, these attempts came to naught, and no attempt has been made to fire me for over 30 years.

I hear what you say, Quantum. Why pay for a union if they can’t really advocate for you?



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30 Nov 2022, 9:43 am

my union [AFGE] saved me from some army brassholes who didn't like my non-military attitude [and hair].



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30 Nov 2022, 11:08 am

I'd rather have a union to protect you from sh***y supervisors who try to exploit you and do sh***y things like changing your schedule after you are off work and not tell you and then blame you for not being at work the next day. There was a person on Reddit who posted about how this happened to her and they tried to gaslight her by saying it's their responsibility to check with their schedules for any changes. So she was calling them everyday to ensure her days off were still the same and left unchanged from the day before. They got tired of it and got rid of their BS policy and changing the schedule the last minute.


When I lived in montana, my work didn't have a union.


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30 Nov 2022, 3:07 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Union jobs can actually be hell for an Aspie. You have the job protection, but a select group of NTs want to get rid of you because you're weird. Can't get you fired outright, so they make your life on-the-job hell. Workplace mobbing ensues.

And how are union shops worse in this regard then non union shops?


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kraftiekortie
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30 Nov 2022, 3:58 pm

It's a bit easier for UK residents to live without unions than it is for Americans to live without unions.

Workers in the UK have more rights, in general, than workers in the US. They have more recourse, even without unions, for when an employer wants to fire them.