Children wandering streets of Alice Springs late at night

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goldfish21
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04 Feb 2023, 9:16 am

I see the effects of colonization on Indigenous peoples are ~same same throughout commonwealth countries.

There are so many stories of Indigenous youth in Vancouver committing petty crimes in order to be sent to jail/juvenile detention centres because they get to eat. For real. Modern day - not 10, 20, 50 years ago.. like probably every damned day current. For them, it's the result of the residential school system destroying their parents and grandparents, resulting in broken people with mental health, drug, and alcohol issues.

Probably not all That different in the prison colony. Maybe they didn't have the same child murdering school system, I dunno, but somehow I doubt the Indigenous population had the same social problems before unmelanted people came along and introduced them.

Also, it's a fact that Europeans evolved to be able to handle consuming alcohol far better than other peoples thanks to unsanitary conditions in cities that led to contaminated water supplies necessitating that people drink alcohol to survive. So, the white folk that couldn't handle their booze died off, and those that carried on the gene pool could handle drinking alcohol. The same thing never happened to various Indigenous populations around the world, so people can't cope with drinking that particular poison w/o significant adverse effects. Not excusing it, but it's understandable how some people get ruined more by alcohol than others - it's science.


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cyberdad
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04 Feb 2023, 6:26 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Also, it's a fact that Europeans evolved to be able to handle consuming alcohol far better than other peoples thanks to unsanitary conditions in cities that led to contaminated water supplies necessitating that people drink alcohol to survive. So, the white folk that couldn't handle their booze died off, and those that carried on the gene pool could handle drinking alcohol. The same thing never happened to various Indigenous populations around the world, so people can't cope with drinking that particular poison w/o significant adverse effects. Not excusing it, but it's understandable how some people get ruined more by alcohol than others - it's science.


Which doesn't really apply since 2023 remote communities in Australia have access to electricity, running water, heating and cooling.

The problem is more complex. What indigenous communities share across the world is intergenerational trauma. But yes those who adapt move and assimilate into the colonizer's world.

70% of Australian aboriginals are classified as middle class and are assimilated into urban culture
https://www.aph.gov.au/parliamentary_bu ... report/c13

The group the OP is throwing a magnifying glass over represent 30% of all indigenous people who are still living in indigenous communities



goldfish21
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04 Feb 2023, 6:47 pm

cyberdad wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Also, it's a fact that Europeans evolved to be able to handle consuming alcohol far better than other peoples thanks to unsanitary conditions in cities that led to contaminated water supplies necessitating that people drink alcohol to survive. So, the white folk that couldn't handle their booze died off, and those that carried on the gene pool could handle drinking alcohol. The same thing never happened to various Indigenous populations around the world, so people can't cope with drinking that particular poison w/o significant adverse effects. Not excusing it, but it's understandable how some people get ruined more by alcohol than others - it's science.


Which doesn't really apply since 2023 remote communities in Australia have access to electricity, running water, heating and cooling.

The problem is more complex. What indigenous communities share across the world is intergenerational trauma. But yes those who adapt move and assimilate into the colonizer's world.

70% of Australian aboriginals are classified as middle class and are assimilated into urban culture
https://www.aph.gov.au/parliamentary_bu ... report/c13

The group the OP is throwing a magnifying glass over represent 30% of all indigenous people who are still living in indigenous communities


How does it not apply? :?

Their ancestors didn't live in polluted cities with contaminated water supplies necessitating the drinking of alcohol in place of water for survival, so they haven't built up a gene pool tolerance to it like white Europeans did. Same reason Indigenous peoples in North America tend to have lower alcohol tolerances and increased susceptibility of alcohol related problems. (Besides the traumas leading to drinking, I mean. Medical/behavioural problems from drinking.)


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cyberdad
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04 Feb 2023, 8:16 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Their ancestors didn't live in polluted cities with contaminated water supplies necessitating the drinking of alcohol in place of water for survival, so they haven't built up a gene pool tolerance to it like white Europeans did. Same reason Indigenous peoples in North America tend to have lower alcohol tolerances and increased susceptibility of alcohol related problems. (Besides the traumas leading to drinking, I mean. Medical/behavioural problems from drinking.)


The gene for alcohol dehydrogenase and lactase was selected for in European populations over thousands of years. Alcohol from brewed grains, honey and milk was consumed on the steppe was an important staple in the diet of nomadic people. This is why Mongol people have similar disposition for breaking down alcohol and dairy whereas Japanese and Thai do not.

But you are missing the point. In industrialised England, water contamination mean't beer was safer to drink than water. But that isn't the issue for modern indigenous people (unless they live in Flint Michigan).

The antecedents here are important. Intergenerational trauma impacts all indigenous people and those who find themselves marginalised in remote communities cut off from employment and social isolation leads to the same triggers alcoholism you find in any community living in poverty. It is a symptom not the cause.



goldfish21
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04 Feb 2023, 8:49 pm

cyberdad wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Their ancestors didn't live in polluted cities with contaminated water supplies necessitating the drinking of alcohol in place of water for survival, so they haven't built up a gene pool tolerance to it like white Europeans did. Same reason Indigenous peoples in North America tend to have lower alcohol tolerances and increased susceptibility of alcohol related problems. (Besides the traumas leading to drinking, I mean. Medical/behavioural problems from drinking.)


The gene for alcohol dehydrogenase and lactase was selected for in European populations over thousands of years. Alcohol from brewed grains, honey and milk was consumed on the steppe was an important staple in the diet of nomadic people. This is why Mongol people have similar disposition for breaking down alcohol and dairy whereas Japanese and Thai do not.

But you are missing the point. In industrialised England, water contamination mean't beer was safer to drink than water. But that isn't the issue for modern indigenous people (unless they live in Flint Michigan).

The antecedents here are important. Intergenerational trauma impacts all indigenous people and those who find themselves marginalised in remote communities cut off from employment and social isolation leads to the same triggers alcoholism you find in any community living in poverty. It is a symptom not the cause.

Wut?

I never said alcohol is safer for them to drink than water. I said they don’t have the same tolerance for alcohol consumption because their ancestors didn’t drink like Europeans did due to contaminated water. So, when they drink it causes more problems than it might in European descendants.


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cyberdad
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04 Feb 2023, 9:44 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
I said they don’t have the same tolerance for alcohol consumption because their ancestors didn’t drink like Europeans did due to contaminated water. So, when they drink it causes more problems than it might in European descendants.


You missed the part where I said that alcoholism is a symptom not the cause of poverty.



Pepe
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05 Feb 2023, 2:21 am

goldfish21 wrote:
I see the effects of colonization on Indigenous peoples are ~same same throughout commonwealth countries.

There are so many stories of Indigenous youth in Vancouver committing petty crimes in order to be sent to jail/juvenile detention centres because they get to eat. For real. Modern day - not 10, 20, 50 years ago.. like probably every damned day current. For them, it's the result of the residential school system destroying their parents and grandparents, resulting in broken people with mental health, drug, and alcohol issues.


Based on what I have heard, the father (usually) gets drunk and the kids are abused.
In order to avoid this, the children avoid the situation by staying out at night.

In addition to this, I have heard that the parents (predominantly the father) spend "all" the money on booze and the kids have to steal to feed themselves.

For decades, city aboriginal activists have denied there was a social problem in their outback community.
They embraced "Ideology over Compassion". 8O


goldfish21 wrote:
Probably not all That different in the prison colony. Maybe they didn't have the same child murdering school system,


If you are talking about the native American/Canadian children being buried at the skool, that has been shown to be disinformation.

goldfish21 wrote:
I dunno, but somehow I doubt the Indigenous population had the same social problems before unmelanted people came along and introduced them.


You need to do more research.
Based on a high-profile Aboriginal woman, the Australian Aboriginal culture was built on a patriarchal philosophy.
In their culture, women were killed if they ventured into male-only territory.
There was also a lot of inter-tribal and intra-tribal violence.
"Spearing" was a common method of dispute resolution and is still in use in some outback communities.

If you believe in the nirvana that Lidia Thorps is espousing, you're dreaming. :mrgreen:
Life was very harsh before the colonialist invaders came.
How do you not know this? "Willful Ignorance"? :scratch:

goldfish21 wrote:
Also, it's a fact that Europeans evolved to be able to handle consuming alcohol far better than other peoples thanks to unsanitary conditions in cities that led to contaminated water supplies necessitating that people drink alcohol to survive. So, the white folk that couldn't handle their booze died off, and those that carried on the gene pool could handle drinking alcohol. The same thing never happened to various Indigenous populations around the world, so people can't cope with drinking that particular poison w/o significant adverse effects. Not excusing it, but it's understandable how some people get ruined more by alcohol than others - it's science.


Agreed, but I wouldn't say they "died off"...
I'd say they didn't reproduce their genes that couldn't cope with alcohol.



goldfish21
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05 Feb 2023, 2:23 am

cyberdad wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
I said they don’t have the same tolerance for alcohol consumption because their ancestors didn’t drink like Europeans did due to contaminated water. So, when they drink it causes more problems than it might in European descendants.


You missed the part where I said that alcoholism is a symptom not the cause of poverty.


I never said anything about it being correlate to poverty at all.

What is going on with your responses to my posts? You’re connecting dots that aren’t there. At all.


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cyberdad
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05 Feb 2023, 2:24 am

goldfish21 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
I said they don’t have the same tolerance for alcohol consumption because their ancestors didn’t drink like Europeans did due to contaminated water. So, when they drink it causes more problems than it might in European descendants.


You missed the part where I said that alcoholism is a symptom not the cause of poverty.


I never said anything about it being correlate to poverty at all.

What is going on with your responses to my posts? You’re connecting dots that aren’t there. At all.


It would appear so



Pepe
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05 Feb 2023, 2:26 am

cyberdad wrote:

The group the OP is throwing a magnifying glass over represent 30% of all indigenous people who are still living in indigenous communities


I am doing nothing of the sort.
I am simply providing an article for ppl's consideration.

WTF?
What part of "Children wandering streets of Alice Springs late at night" don't you understand? :scratch:



cyberdad
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05 Feb 2023, 2:33 am

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:

The group the OP is throwing a magnifying glass over represent 30% of all indigenous people who are still living in indigenous communities


I am doing nothing of the sort.
I am simply providing an article for ppl's consideration.

WTF?
What part of "Children wandering streets of Alice Springs late at night" don't you understand? :scratch:


By default identifying this article. It does however point to Andrew Bolt's assertion not being far from the truth that marginalisation impacts the remote communities > assimilated urban aborigines



goldfish21
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05 Feb 2023, 2:35 am

Pepe wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
I see the effects of colonization on Indigenous peoples are ~same same throughout commonwealth countries.

There are so many stories of Indigenous youth in Vancouver committing petty crimes in order to be sent to jail/juvenile detention centres because they get to eat. For real. Modern day - not 10, 20, 50 years ago.. like probably every damned day current. For them, it's the result of the residential school system destroying their parents and grandparents, resulting in broken people with mental health, drug, and alcohol issues.


Based on what I have heard, the father (usually) gets drunk and the kids are abused.
In order to avoid this, the children avoid the situation by staying out at night.

In addition to this, I have heard that the parents (predominantly the father) spend "all" the money on booze and the kids have to steal to feed themselves.

For decades, city aboriginal activists have denied there was a social problem in their outback community.
They embraced "Ideology over Compassion". 8O


goldfish21 wrote:
Probably not all That different in the prison colony. Maybe they didn't have the same child murdering school system,


If you are talking about the native American/Canadian children being buried at the skool, that has been shown to be disinformation.

goldfish21 wrote:
I dunno, but somehow I doubt the Indigenous population had the same social problems before unmelanted people came along and introduced them.


You need to do more research.
Based on a high-profile Aboriginal woman, the Australian Aboriginal culture was built on a patriarchal philosophy.
In their culture, women were killed if they ventured into male-only territory.
There was also a lot of inter-tribal and intra-tribal violence.
"Spearing" was a common method of dispute resolution and is still in use in some outback communities.

If you believe in the nirvana that Lidia Thorps is espousing, you're dreaming. :mrgreen:
Life was very harsh before the colonialist invaders came.
How do you not know this? "Willful Ignorance"? :scratch:

goldfish21 wrote:
Also, it's a fact that Europeans evolved to be able to handle consuming alcohol far better than other peoples thanks to unsanitary conditions in cities that led to contaminated water supplies necessitating that people drink alcohol to survive. So, the white folk that couldn't handle their booze died off, and those that carried on the gene pool could handle drinking alcohol. The same thing never happened to various Indigenous populations around the world, so people can't cope with drinking that particular poison w/o significant adverse effects. Not excusing it, but it's understandable how some people get ruined more by alcohol than others - it's science.


Agreed, but I wouldn't say they "died off"...
I'd say they didn't reproduce their genes that couldn't cope with alcohol.


Wut?

What kind of nonsense are you reading/listening to over there? :? Literally THOUSANDS of graves & human remains have been found at residential schools across the country. It’s the only school system in the world where graduates are called survivors instead of alumni. I know people who are Direct survivors of those schools - it’s not distant past stuff; they’re still alive. The last residential school in BC didn’t shut down until the mid 1990’s. Their children and grandchildren are products of their traumas and abuses, too.

The thousands of dead Indigenous children killed at residential schools are very real. Searches and ground penetrating radar continue. Some school sites have been bought by Indigenous people to continue searches, do proper burials and ceremonies etc.

Survivors continue to win lawsuits against various levels of government and the church, too. It’s all very real and so is the damage done. To suggest otherwise is akin to being a Holocaust denier - which, btw, hitler modelled after the near completely successful genocide of ~100 Million Indigenous people in North America over a couple hundred years.



Interesting that Australian Aboriginals are a patriarchal society whereas North Americans are Matriarchal - which our colonizer society and government in particular could learn a lot from.


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cyberdad
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05 Feb 2023, 2:54 am

goldfish21 wrote:
Interesting that Australian Aboriginals are a patriarchal society whereas North Americans are Matriarchal - which our colonizer society and government in particular could learn a lot from.


There's a good chance that your ancestors and the ancestors of Australian aborigines once met
https://www.science.org/content/article ... n-ancestry



Pepe
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05 Feb 2023, 7:24 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Wut?

What kind of nonsense are you reading/listening to over there? :? Literally THOUSANDS of graves & human remains have been found at residential schools across the country. It’s the only school system in the world where graduates are called survivors instead of alumni. I know people who are Direct survivors of those schools - it’s not distant past stuff; they’re still alive. The last residential school in BC didn’t shut down until the mid 1990’s. Their children and grandchildren are products of their traumas and abuses, too.

The thousands of dead Indigenous children killed at residential schools are very real. Searches and ground penetrating radar continue. Some school sites have been bought by Indigenous people to continue searches, do proper burials and ceremonies etc.

Survivors continue to win lawsuits against various levels of government and the church, too. It’s all very real and so is the damage done. To suggest otherwise is akin to being a Holocaust denier - which, btw, hitler modelled after the near completely successful genocide of ~100 Million Indigenous people in North America over a couple hundred years.



Interesting that Australian Aboriginals are a patriarchal society whereas North Americans are Matriarchal - which our colonizer society and government in particular could learn a lot from.


I am not going to argue the point.
I did a quick search and can see the problem was much bigger than I realised.
It is very possible my information source was not comprehensive.
Perhaps they were focusing on a specific situation.

I will say, however, that you are conflating the situation by changing the context.
Plz don't misrepresent the discussion.

As always, I am interested in The Truth and not in servicing a narrative. 8)



cyberdad
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06 Feb 2023, 2:07 am

The "Project's" Hamish McDonald entered Alice Springs at night and interviewed some the kids. They seem awfully young. It would seem most of the kids find it safer to stay in town away from their homes where they face domestic violence.

If that's true then the white mob in the town hall are a heartless bunch to call for swift action on the kids when it might be their parents that are the source of the problem.



Pepe
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06 Feb 2023, 2:13 am

cyberdad wrote:
The "Project's" Hamish McDonald entered Alice Springs at night and interviewed some the kids. They seem awfully young. It would seem most of the kids find it safer to stay in town away from their homes where they face domestic violence.

If that's true then the white mob in the town hall are a heartless bunch to call for swift action on the kids when it might be their parents that are the source of the problem.


I hope you are not misrepresenting what was said at the meeting.
Surely the banning of alcohol in the community was the predominant reason.
Alcohol has been identified as the reason for the recent "explosion" of antisocial behaviour.