Marines under attack, crying for their lives

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Being a pommy, you didn't have injured Vietnam vets being spat on after being tipped out of their wheel chairs. Would you tell a vet with both legs amputated from war injuries, "serves you right"?

Even if you do not agree with the war (as I do not) you should be proud and grateful to your military for doing a job you are not prepared to do yourself. They did not ask to go. Your Prime Minister lied to you and them about why they needed to go.

If someone deliberatly set off an avalanche with explosives, its not the snowflakes fault.

Its impossible to mentally 'support' troops of any kind (your own or another country's) without supporting the conflict. Oh, and to add to that, if you're a citizen of a country that is involved in a conflict, its usually also impossible in other ways to not support it if you pay any kind of taxes or the like. Besides that, if you're spending money on anything that supports the economy of a country at war, you are also supporting that war.I'd really like to see the (in a nagging voice);

"If-you-don't-support-the-soldiers-you're-whiney-ungrateful-and stupid." attitude put to rest.

Because its a load, and nothing else. In my own experience, soldiers are morally void, aggressive for the fun of it, exploitive of everything and I could go on. Saying that, I know there are some and probably many that aren't like that, and some people even end up in 'defense' organizations of all kinds through the choice of do or die. So I try not to judge them too harshly. But! This is difficult (to say the least) when one's own country is involved. Dissent is as nessesary to peace as the occasional conflict is, so those who would stiffle the voices of dissent are as peace-loathing as those war-for the-sake-of-I-don't like-your-headressings mongers from he$$.

The world is involved in some sick, uninformed, long overdue (if they were due at all) and blown out of proportion conflicts right now. I think the positive results of these conflicts will in some cases be very temporary and in others will be cancelled out by the negative ones. And the negative results that we're already seeing are crippling and make me sick.

If we can't get over the childish squabbling (as voters/citizens/governments/consumers, etc.), we won't even get back to the sac of crap we called peace just a few short years ago. And I REFUSE to support the damn war efforts. And before someone asks "Oh well you must of liked Saddam!" or some ridiculous line like that, NO! I didn't. And 'we' (the 'first world'/the frigging UN/who-freaking-ever) should have done something about that situation the first time around or when he was closer to a natural/political death as far as I'm concerned. Too bloody late or too early, I don't know, but don't tell me to support this crap. < period

but you don't have to be against the soldiers if you are againstthe war.

Yes, while I realize that, many do not and act extremely offensively in my experience (its very 'conservative' in my area) when I do so much as say I dislike something about a conflict or something having to do with it. I mean, I've been berrated (as a child) by teachers/adults about being ungrateful for my country's amount of freedom for not wanting to take my stupid Habs cap off during 'O Canada' (one example). That's the kind of attitude I'm talking about, and I think many others have experienced the same thing. I mean I think the first poster got a bit too cockey with their post, but I don't think it warrents some of the subsequent reactions at all. I think a lot of political officials, voters, educators, and more, who currently have the most power, at least in North America, have their 'panties in a knot' and/or their ties too tight from not using their fear from the past in constructive ways. And it shows up a lot in youth and blacksheep of their own generation(s). Its pretty justified, if unhealthy, and to try to combat that with more squabbling is nonsensical to me.

I disagree that it's impossible to mentally support troops without supporting the conflict, and I'll give you an example.
I think the "war" in Iraq is a farce. It is counter to any reliable military doctrine, and was prepetrated by men who have never once been in combat. Even Sun Tzu, the most basic military theory you read in War College, argues against the type of situation occurring at the moment. Rumsfled couldn't plan a military operation to save his freakin' life. I hold them personally responsible and I feel their "motivations" for initiating this conflict were/are morally reprehensible. It is my fondest wish that the administration and all members of Congress/senate who approved this action be put through BMT then AIS and sent to Iraq. Their war, let them fight it. I think the "war" in Iraq was nothing more than a smokescreen to get the American people to overlook the fact that one of the most technologically advanced world powers can't find one guy. In fact, I strongly suspect that they never intended to look for him, much less find him.
That said, I strongly support my friends that are over there. They don't really have much of a choice. 2 of them joined the military long before 11SEP01, intending to get GI Bill coverage to fund their college studies. The other is career Army. I've had emails from all 3 since they've been there. Not ONE of them wants to be there. Yes, they had a choice to join the military. Once in, however, you go where you're told to go, like it or not. If you refuse, prepare to say hello to Ft. Leavenworth.

The second bit initially ticked me off, simply because none of what you said applies to any armed forces member I know. Not me, not my dad, not my uncles or aunts, not my grandfather, not my friends. However, that's your personal experience. And, let me add, that's a pretty sucky experience to've had; sorry. There ARE morally and mentally deficient people in just about ANY military. There are many more who understand that there are people who do not and will not respect your/our freedoms (whatever they are) and telling them to stop being bad just won't work.
I look at the military in the same manner I look at a firearm. There are some people who will not stop being Bad, and must BE stopped. The military is the tool you use to stop them.

Now... to cover something that I reminded myself of above in mid-semi-rant... is it just me or does anyone else recall the US administration hooting something about Afghanistan/the Taliban having been 'taken care of'? Why is it that Canadian and other "coalition" troops are still there, still being killed and still working their asses off to clean up the mess the US left?

note: I refer to the war in Iraq as a "war" because usually a war requires two armies. I see 1 army and a buttload of pissed-off people loosely organised as militants. Interesting to note as well that the etymology for 'war' traces back to early Indo-European roots, meaning 'mixture' or 'confusion'.

I'm still waiting for manilatwist to show me his enlistment papers, btw.

Modern soldiers from Europe, North America etc are not coerced into combat by being kidnapped as children or with guns at their families heads.

They made the CHOICE to sign up in the first place. They actively CHOSE to follow through a course of action without first having questioned whether it was the right path for themselves personally. If you choose to blindly follow someone elses orders to kill, then you have a responsibility to make damn sure you choose the right leader! In making that choice you share the burden of guilt with them.

Because soldiers chose to piss away any sense of personal responsibility makes them no less responsible IMO. Because its precisely this abdication of personal accountability that makes atrocities, dictatorships and so forth possible.

Dear oh dear, psych

Last time I looked, there are EC member countries with compulsory military service.

I'm sure there are Brits in Iraq who joined up under John Major, never thinking Brits would become so impotent or stupid that you would let a future PM blatantly lie to you about WMD's and suck you into a war, keeping the real reasons secret.

Don't blame the poor grunts on the ground who swore an loyalty oath to the Queen because you and your countrymen didn't call Tony Blair for being the liar he is.

What are you doing about your elected representatives in parliament who lied to you. Under a democracy, its your resoponsibility to call them to account.

Austria, Belarus, Brazil, Bulgaria, Chile, China, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Egypt, Eritrea, Finland, Germany, Greece, Iran, Israel, South Korea, Lebanon, Malaysia, Mexico, Norway, Poland, Russia, Singapore, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Turkey, Ukraine and Venezuela.
As well, the US requires that males age 18 register for the Selective Service, just in case they reinstate the draft.

diseased, I'm talking more on attitudes than the wars themselves because I have more experience/knowledge there...

agree

The choises/options of your friends are part of the kind of thing I meant by saying 'even' end up there because of a do or die situation. I should of made it more clear, I guess. Recruiters have made their way into my life more than once...I'm timid to say this....but I would've joined the military myself around 2000 if I'd had any faith in my gov, I didn't/don't and that's the only reason why I'm not invloved. Saying that, some people are pushed/fall into things and sh*t happens, I don't hold it aginst soldiers to be soldiers, I hate/disagree with the current conflicts and I hate the way people talk to eachother about war/supporting troops. If a particular conflict is BS, don't you need more dissent to stop it, or, later on redirect it?? Thinking of the recent elections, for an example...

I realize what a military is for....I said conflicts are sometimes nessesary. There's a balance between support and dissent for/of the type of war I know anything about for it to even be possible, within each 'side' of it. And I think there should be openess as to how people react to it, within reason. Its a stupid youtube vid and an ignorant comment as far as I'm concerned and balling people out about that type of thing usually comes back at ya in the same form that pisses one off..... 's possible I'm over sensitive because of my negative experiences though...

Well, they knew John Major was likely to be replaced during their term of service.



'swore a loyalty oath to the queen'

- ah! the divine rule of kings, 'defender of the faith' - appointed by god no less!
Doesnt that all seem just a tad silly in this day and age?

So to summarise; the people actually doing the killing are merely 'poor grunts', whereas the british public at large (many of whom dissaprove of said killing) are 'impotent or stupid'? Funny worldview you have.

Yes

Its good to see you feel strongly about this deception. You are quite right that ordinary people need to do more.

However, i reject the notion of democracy (as it stands, in its modern form) as a means to effect significant and lasting change. Its a rotten system that serves to enforce class relations and the rich/poor divide, whilst offering the illusion of public self-government. We are effectively led by unelected media tycoons.

I tend to agree.

I am enjoying this post, but I have to log off.

ttfn

Soldier’s testimony: 'We just drove off looking for more people to kill’

Many of the new documents include testimonies by soldiers and civilians describing abuse they have witnessed in Iraq.

Among the documents is a statement by an army private describing how his platoon attacked a village after soldiers joked that their sergeant was a coward.

The sergeant decided to prove himself by setting an ambush for an Iraqi civilian.

"Right before a mission one night the sergeant went up to his gunner and asked him if he wanted to test the MK-19 multiple grenade launcher on someone tonight.

"We usually just drive around and look for people with AKs rifles and confiscate them. We have always been able to drive up to them and take the weapon from them with no shots fired.

"That night on a mission we saw an Iraqi civilian walking towards us on the other side of the canal. So we decided to set up an ambush and kill him.

"We waited until he was next to us on the other side of the canal and opened fire on him. He never took his rifle off his shoulder.

"He just ran away from us into a field for cover. In the countryside in Iraq all people have guns for protection.

"After the man ran into the field we waited close to a minute and there was never any fire returned. That’s when my platoon sergeant told his gunner to spray the field with MK-19 grenade rounds.

"The gunner put about four to five rounds into the field. Still there was no return fire. But next door to the field was a house.

Screaming

"The climate is so hot that everybody sleeps outside. After the MK-19 explosions all you heard was women and children screaming.

"My platoon sergeant told my gunner to get his eyes night vision equipment on the house. There were two men, four to six women and about ten children. My platoon sergeant asked my gunner if there were any weapons and he said 'no’, that the two men were just trying to get the women and children all inside.

Then a single shot came off in the distance well over 500 meters away. My platoon sergeant said 'f**k it’ and 'light them up’.

His gunner shot about three to four MK-19 rounds into the front yard and everyone else shot M16 assault rifles. It lasted about ten seconds.

"Then we just stopped and saw that the two men were injured. One of them had his arm blown off.

"All the people at the house were panicking. Some ran into the woods, some into the house, and a couple next door into another house. We just sat there and watched them.

"Finally an Iraqi civilian vehicle drove by and loaded a bunch of injured people and drove off. And so did we, looking for more people to kill."

The soldier recounts how captured Iraqis would be "hog tied" to the front of their Humvee military vehicles.

Captive

"We would put the captive on top of the Humvees with the gunner until one tried to throw up. After that we would hog tie them and stuff them in between the hood and the brush guard.

"I asked, 'At least tie his leg to the brush guard so he doesn’t fall off’ and my superior would say, 'Who cares? If he falls off we just run him over and it’s one less to worry about’."

The private describes in his statement how his platoon was involved in looting the homes of Iraqis.

The platoon would follow expensive cars to their homes. Soldiers would then search the home and "steal stuff from the houses or POWs prisoners, such as bricks of money, Iraqi army medals, uniforms, pictures of Saddam... all the way down to cigarette lighters".

Despite the private’s seven page testimony, none of the other soldiers in his platoon were prepared to back him up. The rest of the report is composed of denials.

The report concludes that no action would be taken and all charges were dismissed.

You can read summaries of the latest documents at http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/011206/