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Michigan's homophobia increases

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John_Browning
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20 Jun 2012, 3:00 am

Vigilans wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
Having attended support groups regularly that had gay members, those "trite" differences can really add up and sometimes it's best not to try and force fit compatibility.


If a person who happens to be gay wants counseling on a matter not involving his or her sexual orientation, but the counselor knows of their orientation, is it "forcing compatibility" for them to seek services with them?

Why does sexual orientation have to be a big deal with people? It really is trite, no matter how it is put.

John_Browning wrote:
If a counselor genuinely has a heartfelt belief that gays and gay relationships never have as much potential to be as healthy and stable as straight people and their relationships can be, chances are that arrangement won't work out well to begin with.


Counselors are obviously not perfect, but having such black and white thinking is not conducive to effective emotional support. If the personal choices of clients are such an issue for certain counselors that they cannot do their jobs (which can amount to little more than listening, sometimes) then perhaps they should find another line of work more appropriate to their uncompromising belief system

If people desire counseling that is religiously appropriate, that is what priests and other religious authorities are there for. Professionals should know better. So to sum it up: besides being ridiculous, backwards and ignoble, it is also extremely unprofessional of a counselor to engage in such behavior. Instead of making a huge piss about it, they could have just referred the client to another practitioner; but no, everyone wants to be a civil rights hero, even if the "right" they are fighting for is of extremely questionable ethics

The best counselors I've ever met (from the outpatient program of a prestigious hospital to therapists running support groups) include the use of religion in their methods. Black and white thinking is crucial for some people- especially with addictive or antisocial tendencies. If gays want someone that will validate anything they want, tell therm whatever they want to hear, and help them blame-shift to any circumstance or other generation they want, that's their own self-inflicted loss! Pastors can be really good for some things, but to fill the role of a therapist, they almost always need a psychology degree.


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Vigilans
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20 Jun 2012, 6:47 am

John_Browning wrote:
The best counselors I've ever met (from the outpatient program of a prestigious hospital to therapists running support groups) include the use of religion in their methods. Black and white thinking is crucial for some people- especially with addictive or antisocial tendencies.


That is fine, if both patient and counselor share religious beliefs, that gives the counselor one more tool to help the person. If they do not share beliefs, the counselor's responsibility is to provide them with help as they can. So their religious help might not be able to play a part (or it might- lots of gays are Christians, after all), and they will have to rely on- wait for it- their professional training!

John_Browning wrote:
If gays want someone that will validate anything they want, tell therm whatever they want to hear, and help them blame-shift to any circumstance or other generation they want, that's their own self-inflicted loss! Pastors can be really good for some things, but to fill the role of a therapist, they almost always need a psychology degree.


Wtf are you talking about? Blame shift? Validation?

If pastors need a psychology degree to work as a therapist, should a therapist need a theology degree to provide religious instruction?

"Therapist's religious liberties" "militant gays" oh jeez, Inuyasha is definitely back, still missing the point and still posting live from 1853


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visagrunt
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20 Jun 2012, 1:45 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
I think you miss the point.

This is about the counsellor's first amendment rights, it is an attempt to tell people if you are in a certain religion you can't be in certain professions because of your religious beliefs.


Did you read my post? Or have you just traipsed in and assumed you understand what I am saying?

I have said in simple terms that I believe that a professional is permitted to refuse to perform certain kinds of work--provided that the professional ensures that the client or patient is referred to another professional who will.


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20 Jun 2012, 2:00 pm

visagrunt wrote:
I believe that a professional is permitted to refuse to perform certain kinds of work--provided that the professional ensures that the client or patient is referred to another professional who will.


I think the outlook the professional should have is that they are unable to meet the specific needs of the client/patient, not that they are unwilling because of their religion. Then again I am a gentle and kind-hearted individual so I cannot expect everyone else to feel this way, even if their chosen profession is helping people. It is also helping a person to refer them to another professional; but it is potentially emotionally traumatizing to refuse them due to their sexual orientation. If even counselors turn an emotionally disturbed, isolated, lonely and depressed homosexual individual away, because of their orientation, which may have caused them these social and emotional problems to begin with; the chance of them committing suicide will probably rise accordingly. In some ways, such a rebuke is saying "your life is not worth saving in my eyes" which can lead to even more despair and feelings of worthlessness on the part of the potential client


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Kraichgauer
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21 Jun 2012, 5:29 am

Sure, religious freedom is important, but when it's used to justify the bashing gays or any other unpopular group, the line has to be drawn. Am I wrong, or don't therapists have to take a Hippocratic oath to do no harm to a patient, the same as doctors?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



visagrunt
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21 Jun 2012, 12:50 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Sure, religious freedom is important, but when it's used to justify the bashing gays or any other unpopular group, the line has to be drawn. Am I wrong, or don't therapists have to take a Hippocratic oath to do no harm to a patient, the same as doctors?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I have never taken the Hippocratic Oath, and a quick check among the physicans within earshot confirms that none of us did. Many took the Declaration of Geneva Oath or some form of it. The rest of us took no oath at all. The reality is that we are bound by the ethical rules and guildelines set down by our licensing bodies. It is the rules of the College of Physicians and Surgeons that dictates my conduct.

I think the ethic of "first do no harm" is a sound one, but it should be understood taking into account the actual context of the patient in front of one. A patient who is immediate distress must be treated differently than a patient who can be safely referred.

I believe that it is entirely possible for a counsellor who is personally opposed to homosexuality to decline to treat a patient in a manner that is respectful and professional. When a professional crosses the line of respectful and professional behaviour, then there are means to sanction that person. But let's not assume that they are going to misconduct themselves right out of the gate.


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21 Jun 2012, 1:44 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Sure, religious freedom is important, but when it's used to justify the bashing gays or any other unpopular group, the line has to be drawn. Am I wrong, or don't therapists have to take a Hippocratic oath to do no harm to a patient, the same as doctors?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I have never taken the Hippocratic Oath, and a quick check among the physicans within earshot confirms that none of us did. Many took the Declaration of Geneva Oath or some form of it. The rest of us took no oath at all. The reality is that we are bound by the ethical rules and guildelines set down by our licensing bodies. It is the rules of the College of Physicians and Surgeons that dictates my conduct.

I think the ethic of "first do no harm" is a sound one, but it should be understood taking into account the actual context of the patient in front of one. A patient who is immediate distress must be treated differently than a patient who can be safely referred.

I believe that it is entirely possible for a counsellor who is personally opposed to homosexuality to decline to treat a patient in a manner that is respectful and professional. When a professional crosses the line of respectful and professional behaviour, then there are means to sanction that person. But let's not assume that they are going to misconduct themselves right out of the gate.


Okay. Seems I've been watching too much TV and movies! :lol:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



auntblabby
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23 Jun 2012, 2:16 am

part of the golden rule is to strive [as much as possible] to harm nobody. if a few bad apples in the counseling profession can't abstain from destructive behaviors towards certain of their clients, they should consider other lines of work.



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23 Jun 2012, 12:23 pm

As far as some therapist not knowing if a person is gay or not without being told by the client. I disagree cause some are just obvious without saying anything. There are also sterotypes like a effeminate male who is not gay or a masculine woman who is not bull dike but looks like one.
The therapist could assume based on appearances they are homosexual and refuse treatment. However, what if a guy showed up for his appointment dressed in drag but not mention anything about being transexual or a crossdresser?

Personally I think that if a councilor is board certified, they should have the professionalism to check their personal beliefs at the door and follow by ethical guidelines. They are called personal beliefs for a reason, kinda like underwear. What if Christianity was not the majority, but an oppresed minority, would you then agree with this bill?? Freedom of religion is meant to protect people from religious realots in power, not to protect the religious zealots in power. At the time of the founding fathers who wrote these things, the inqusition was still a fresh wound, but it seems we are doomed to repeat history.

Jojo


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visagrunt
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25 Jun 2012, 3:47 pm

jojobean wrote:
As far as some therapist not knowing if a person is gay or not without being told by the client. I disagree cause some are just obvious without saying anything. There are also sterotypes like a effeminate male who is not gay or a masculine woman who is not bull dike but looks like one.
The therapist could assume based on appearances they are homosexual and refuse treatment. However, what if a guy showed up for his appointment dressed in drag but not mention anything about being transexual or a crossdresser?

Personally I think that if a councilor is board certified, they should have the professionalism to check their personal beliefs at the door and follow by ethical guidelines. They are called personal beliefs for a reason, kinda like underwear. What if Christianity was not the majority, but an oppresed minority, would you then agree with this bill?? Freedom of religion is meant to protect people from religious realots in power, not to protect the religious zealots in power. At the time of the founding fathers who wrote these things, the inqusition was still a fresh wound, but it seems we are doomed to repeat history.

Jojo


I won't go that far, Jojo. I want the right, as a professional, to say that there are some types of work that I am not interested in doing. That is not meant to be offensive to the client or the patient, but meant to allow me freedom of conscience. And if I expect to have that freedom, I don't see how I can ethically expect my colleagues not to have exactly the same freedom.

Ethically, I will never leave a person without help--but I will always reserve the right to phone a colleague and say, "I have a patient that I would like to refer to you."


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05 Jan 2013, 8:17 pm

I hate living in Michigan. It is so scary to me. PLUS I am super paranoid, and also Trans! I feel whenever I am in public that they can hear my thoughts and know I am trans. Scares me out of leaving the house a lot of the time. I am not transitioning but yet I am sure they can look at me and either think, wow she is butch or something is not right with her. So they probably think I am a lesbian if anything I guess. IDK. Still...Michigan is NOT a lgbt friendly place.


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05 Jan 2013, 10:39 pm

SanityTheorist wrote:
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/06/15/500434/michigan-house-passes-anti-gay-license-to-condemn-counseling-bill/?mobile=nc

I really hate these damn republicans...such self-serving people with no sense of compassion.


I could state here that I hate all of the damn Democrats in the world, but I'm not going to stoop down to that level. I am a Republican, and frankly, I do have compassion. I'm just not about to compromise my own principles by condoning a lifestyle that I believe to be wrong.

It's funny how people who demand tolerance are usually the very ones who are the least likely to give it in return.



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05 Jan 2013, 11:45 pm

I will belive the Republicans are really for religious freedom when they allow a blaspheme the straight away therapy. Otherwise how can I tell it is not gay bashing with religous tolerance.



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09 Jan 2013, 1:48 am

I wouldn't worry about this law too much as it was an extremely pointless endeavor that serves no real purpose other than for the anti-LGBT people to feel good about themselves. They named bill after her. That should tell you something about how smug they're making this whole situation.

Besides no patient would want a counselor that will not tolerate them due to religious beliefs anyway.



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09 Jan 2013, 2:37 am

Michigan is ruled by scum that overruled a popular referendum by re-passing the law that was struck down by this popular vote and added a trick provision to make it referendum-proof. Michigan's leaders are the lowest of humanity. I wonder when 'propagande par le fait' will finally make its appearance as it did in the previous Gilded Age.



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16 Jan 2013, 3:22 pm

noxnocturne wrote:

I could state here that I hate all of the damn Democrats in the world, but I'm not going to stoop down to that level. I am a Republican, and frankly, I do have compassion. I'm just not about to compromise my own principles by condoning a lifestyle that I believe to be wrong.

It's funny how people who demand tolerance are usually the very ones who are the least likely to give it in return.


According to these "principles", gay people should have no expectations of equality, legal protections, societal accommodation, or just to be treated with basic respect. We're talking about a political party that believes that gay sex should be a criminal offense, that homosexuality is a matter for the vice squad, that religious "principle" trumps gay people's right to be free.

This is Republican "logic" on display: tolerance is intolerance, the oppressed are the oppressors, down is up, tax cuts increase revenue, & 2+2=5. Fortunately they're losing.