Pew: Romney Leads By 4 In Post-Debate Survey

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Kraichgauer
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13 Oct 2012, 8:39 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

As a matter of fact, my wife qualified for a free cell phone because she's on social security due to a physical disability. I fail to see how that's a bad thing, especially if we're away from home while our daughter is in school, and they need to get hold of us. And I have been on food stamps - trust me, I'd rather be dependent on the government than to let my little girl go hungry.

However, your wife has a physical disability, and I suspect you would much rather have a well paying job than have to be reliant on food stamps.

Kraichgauer wrote:

And who's to judge anyone on public assistance as being worthy or not? Many of those people who have been vilified for making the social safety net a way of life often have been out of work so long that they have succumbed to severe, untreated, undiagnosed depression - trust me, I know what I'm talking about, here. I have never known anyone on public assistance who is genuinely happy about the circumstances of their lives. That's the 47%. Romney needs to use his money to buy a heart. And regardless of what he thinks of them, that 47% are still Americans, and if Romney gets elected, he'll really be falling down on the job if he doesn't represent them, as he promised his rich friends he wouldn't.

The situation is rather complex Kraichgauer I will grant you that, but Mitt Romney isn't exactly heartless, considering the man donates 30% of his income to charity, and is known for donating his time to help people with no fanfare, he doesn't brag about it, etc.

Kraichgauer wrote:

And I've never known anyone who holds the rich's success against them. That class envy the right spouts is just a load of sh** meant to silence those who speak out against the growing wealth gap between the tiny 1% and the rest of us.

I actually have Kraichgauer and so have you whether you recognize it or not. I suspect Mitt Romney just had the percentages wrong.

Also you do realize there is at least 2 minutes missing from that tape, makes you wonder what was said in that 2 minutes that may actually have made Romney look better in your eyes.

Nope, no great paying job - rather, I'm a bohemian bum trying to break into professional fiction. The jobs I've worked in my time - despite being a college graduate - have been s**t.
And no, no class envy on my part. But I do admit to resentment that there are those who don't regard me as an equal because of my economic status. But that's hardly envy.
As far as those missing two minutes are concerned, Romney would have had to have taken back every single word he had said about the 47% for my opinion about him to have changed.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

JBlitzen
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13 Oct 2012, 10:43 pm

Kraich, can a society reach a point where it is so oriented toward taking care of citizens that don't create value, that the citizens who do create value can no longer sustain it?

Kraichgauer
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13 Oct 2012, 11:00 pm

JBlitzen wrote:

Kraich, can a society reach a point where it is so oriented toward taking care of citizens that don't create value, that the citizens who do create value can no longer sustain it?

It's obvious that it's in our best interest to help people get work who can work. But that doesn't include demeaning them. Part of the reason why so many people cling to the safety net is because there is the very real fear that without medical coverage offered by the government, they and their families would be at risk. The answer obviously is that there should be nationalized medicine that will put this fear to risk. On top of that, instead of throwing people out into the cold after years of going without work, there should be guaranteed work for them, with benefits. That's how you spare the productive the burden of supporting the "unproductive."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

JBlitzen
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13 Oct 2012, 11:30 pm

Guaranteed work with benefits? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Kraichgauer
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13 Oct 2012, 11:41 pm

JBlitzen wrote:

Guaranteed work with benefits? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Just what you said. Someone here on WP had said in Sweden, when someone isn't able to find work, they are given jobs like fixing cobblestones on public roads and walkways. That way, everyone pretty much has full employment, and there is a steady tax base. I can't see why such a thing isn't enacted here in the USA.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

JBlitzen
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13 Oct 2012, 11:47 pm

We don't really have cobblestones...

auntblabby
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13 Oct 2012, 11:51 pm

JBlitzen wrote:

We don't really have cobblestones...

you are deliberately ignoring his point, aren't you?

JBlitzen
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13 Oct 2012, 11:55 pm

auntblabby wrote:

JBlitzen wrote:

We don't really have cobblestones...

you are deliberately ignoring his point, aren't you?

No. It's impossible to discuss his point without raising specifics.

Think about this, what if the required work is cotton picking?

Are we returning to the antebellum days when forced labor was used to bring in the crops on the plantation?

I have no idea what Sweden's system is, but I suspect it's not as described. Bricklaying is a skilled trade, it's not something you put an unmotivated and unskilled worker on, even if they're voluntary.

And let's say these involuntary servants are paid. Are they paid above minimum wage? For how many hours a day? Wouldn't that actually cost more than paying them unemployment benefits?

And what job will they be prepared to get as a result? Professional bricklayer? Those would all be out of work, forced out by the slaves they're competing against.

Kraichgauer
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13 Oct 2012, 11:59 pm

JBlitzen wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

JBlitzen wrote:

We don't really have cobblestones...

you are deliberately ignoring his point, aren't you?

I'm going by what one of my fellow Aspies had said was policy in Sweden, and I've never had any reason to doubt him.
And it doesn't have to be cobblestone repair - it could be anything that puts people back to work and being productive citizens.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

JBlitzen
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14 Oct 2012, 12:05 am

I don't see any reference here to the sort of thing you're talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits_in_Sweden

Kraichgauer
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14 Oct 2012, 12:12 am

JBlitzen wrote:

I don't see any reference here to the sort of thing you're talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits_in_Sweden

Well, if I can find the person who had reported on that, I'll pm him and ask him to expand on it.
Regardless, I think it still is a good idea.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

JBlitzen
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14 Oct 2012, 12:14 am

I see no reason to believe that forced labor is the optimal path to economic growth.

Kraichgauer
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14 Oct 2012, 12:26 am

JBlitzen wrote:

I see no reason to believe that forced labor is the optimal path to economic growth.

Wait a minute, who said anything about forced labor?!?! This sort of job would be offered to people otherwise unemployable.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

JBlitzen
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14 Oct 2012, 12:31 am

So you're saying you'll pay me the same whether I take the offered job or not? Why would anyone take it, then?

Kraichgauer
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14 Oct 2012, 1:09 am

JBlitzen wrote:

So you're saying you'll pay me the same whether I take the offered job or not? Why would anyone take it, then?

If my source here on WP is correct, then the chronically unemployed really don't want to be on the dole, but are proven to want to work when a job is offered - despite what the right claims. So, no, it's not a matter of working or not working for the same amount of money.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Vatnos
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14 Oct 2012, 5:42 pm

JBlitzen wrote:

Kraich, can a society reach a point where it is so oriented toward taking care of citizens that don't create value, that the citizens who do create value can no longer sustain it?

I'd say we passed that point a long time ago. Unfortunately, the parasites that are killing our economy are not the unemployed single mothers on welfare as it's often perceived, but the investment class, who make their fortunes from manipulating arcane financial mechanics without contributing a damn thing. It's a bit late to do anything. They have bought our government and brainwashed half the population into believing that giving them even more tax cuts and loosening regulations that restrict their excesses will somehow make life better for the rest of us.

Although these people have a vested interest in not squeezing the rest of the population so hard that they too begin to hurt from it. The parasite needs its host to survive. So it's a game of seeing how far they can push it, how much inequality they can achieve before the system collapses. For the past 30 years, they've slowly turned the temperature up in the pot so the frog doesn't notice it's boiling.

Back in the 60s and 70s, when top marginal tax rates were above 75%, a middle class family could easily send their kids to college and pay their medical bills on one household income. Now two-income households strain to accomplish those tasks and the level of financial security the average American enjoys is noticeably lower. 30 years of trickle down economics will do that.

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