Homeless shoe guy wants his piece of the pie

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SpiritBlooms
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04 Dec 2012, 1:32 pm

CyborgUprising wrote:
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You can lead a horse to water...


...Or you can lead a horse to slaughter.


In regards to dealing with homelessness, the best thing I can think of would be to house them in units much like apartments (where they perform basic tasks and work towards the upkeep of the complex in lieu of paying rent) and have financial management courses and vocational studies so the individuals can learn how to be responsible with their money and learn a trade (of course this would be contingent upon their desire to help themselves -- one cannot change those not willing to change). Unfortunately the U.S. probably cannot afford this given the current economic situation. Of course, getting anyone to agree on this this is a "whole 'nother Oprah:" Inevitably, some are going to argue that such a program sounds too "socialist," with others claiming it is too "conservative."


A great number of people living on the streets are veterans, drug addicts or mentally ill, some a combination of two or all three of those. If the government took better care of veterans and the mentally ill to begin with, and if it ended the war on drugs and spent all that money on free rehab for anyone who wants it, as well as a program such as you recommend, to help people get back on their feet, I think a lot of the homeless problems would be solved, and everyone better off. Possibly at no additional cost, when you consider how much is expended now on the drug war and housing prisoners.



MrXxx
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04 Dec 2012, 1:35 pm

CyborgUprising wrote:
Quote:
You can lead a horse to water...


...Or you can lead a horse to slaughter.


In regards to dealing with homelessness, the best thing I can think of would be to house them in units much like apartments (where they perform basic tasks and work towards the upkeep of the complex in lieu of paying rent) and have financial management courses and vocational studies so the individuals can learn how to be responsible with their money and learn a trade (of course this would be contingent upon their desire to help themselves -- one cannot change those not willing to change). Unfortunately the U.S. probably cannot afford this given the current economic situation. Of course, getting anyone to agree on this this is a "whole 'nother Oprah:" Inevitably, some are going to argue that such a program sounds too "socialist," with others claiming it is too "conservative."


This isn't a response to you specifically, but your post brought some additional thoughts up. In principle, I actually agree with you on this, and such programs are a good idea, and would probably help some homeless, but more has to be considered.


Just out of curiosity, has anyone in this thread ever thought much about, or looked into the history of the homeless?

Specifically, I mean, the explosion of the homeless population that occurred back in the late sixties and seventies?

One explanation for that was the closing of many mental institutions beginning in the mid fifties. Even since then, more have closed.

The point being, of course, that homelessness is very often caused by mental illness. The explosion of homeless back then, was caused by many people suddenly with no place to go for treatment. Subsequently, their illnesses, exacerbated led to many more homeless than ever before.

It's not a bad idea to teach people how not to be homeless, but if they lack the capacity to learn, or more importantly, lack the capacity to consistently apply what they've learned, more is needed.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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04 Dec 2012, 1:57 pm

SpiritBlooms wrote:
CyborgUprising wrote:
Quote:
You can lead a horse to water...


...Or you can lead a horse to slaughter.


In regards to dealing with homelessness, the best thing I can think of would be to house them in units much like apartments (where they perform basic tasks and work towards the upkeep of the complex in lieu of paying rent) and have financial management courses and vocational studies so the individuals can learn how to be responsible with their money and learn a trade (of course this would be contingent upon their desire to help themselves -- one cannot change those not willing to change). Unfortunately the U.S. probably cannot afford this given the current economic situation. Of course, getting anyone to agree on this this is a "whole 'nother Oprah:" Inevitably, some are going to argue that such a program sounds too "socialist," with others claiming it is too "conservative."


A great number of people living on the streets are veterans, drug addicts or mentally ill, some a combination of two or all three of those. If the government took better care of veterans and the mentally ill to begin with, and if it ended the war on drugs and spent all that money on free rehab for anyone who wants it, as well as a program such as you recommend, to help people get back on their feet, I think a lot of the homeless problems would be solved, and everyone better off. Possibly at no additional cost, when you consider how much is expended now on the drug war and housing prisoners.

The problem is rehab doesn't always reach everyone. I read up on this and the homeless man has 10 drug possession convictions. 10. I am sure at some point, he was given the opportunity to transform his life. In fact, this policeman would have helped him do it. The police officer wanted to do more and the man simply said, "God bless you." The officer was going to buy him something to eat and a drink. A connection could have been made there but the man would not do it. How can such a person be reached? Just by putting him in a mental institution against his will? First, he has to want to change. Otherwise, not gonna happen.



MrXxx
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04 Dec 2012, 2:10 pm

The sad reality is some people simply cannot be reached. So yes, put them somewhere where they may be taken care of.

Against his will? Only if he's a danger to others.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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04 Dec 2012, 2:14 pm

MrXxx wrote:
The sad reality is some people simply cannot be reached. So yes, put them somewhere where they may be taken care of.

Against his will? Only if he's a danger to others.

How do you know he hasn't already been there? Sounds like he has had a lot of opportunity to do something. Honestly, he doesn't seem to want it. If he wants to be on the street, what can you do? Some people actually do want to be on the street, incredibly. It's dangerous to everyone else but they don't see it that way. They are more miserable confined.



MrXxx
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04 Dec 2012, 2:45 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
The sad reality is some people simply cannot be reached. So yes, put them somewhere where they may be taken care of.

Against his will? Only if he's a danger to others.


How do you know he hasn't already been there? Sounds like he has had a lot of opportunity to do something. Honestly, he doesn't seem to want it. If he wants to be on the street, what can you do? Some people actually do want to be on the street, incredibly. It's dangerous to everyone else but they don't see it that way. They are more miserable confined.


I don't know. Where did I give any indication that I do?

How do you know he, or anyone for that matter, would be more miserable if they were placed in a safer environment?

You're right. Some people would rather be in the streets. Some would rather not. I'm only suggesting doing something about the latter group.

Never suggested forcing people into anything they don't want, unless they are a danger to others.

It seems as though you are arguing with me as if you think I believe all homeless should be placed in institutions. If that is your assumption, you are incorrect. I believe no such thing.

If he has "been there," and is choosing not to get help, the next thing to consider is whether he may be mentally ill enough to be incapable of rational decisions. If he is capable of rational decisions, leave him be. If he's not, take care of him. It's the humane thing to do.


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04 Dec 2012, 3:00 pm

Just an update... news.msn.com Guess he isn't on the streets after all.



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04 Dec 2012, 4:43 pm

I have thought he was posing as a homeless person and is panhandling or he sold the boots for money so he can get food.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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04 Dec 2012, 4:53 pm

I am thinking maybe he doesn't like his neighborhood in the Bronx...this is another common problem. Some of the neighborhoods are so dangerous, people like this guy do not want to be there. So, maybe this is the issue? The MSNBC article also said he has a history of turning down services when people have attempted to help. He just doesn't want it. Just accept him for what he is.

Now, the media is going to hound this poor guy forever. It's getting ridiculous. I have already read some articles full of so much vitriol it has turned my stomach. What do people get out of so much venom?



blue_bean
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05 Dec 2012, 3:33 am

I read in another article that he hid the shoes because he didn't want them to get stolen by other homeless people.



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05 Dec 2012, 4:32 am

most higher-class folk have no idea of the reality of street life. at least the officer had a good heart which no cynic can take from him.



ruveyn
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05 Dec 2012, 12:10 pm

auntblabby wrote:
most higher-class folk have no idea of the reality of street life. at least the officer had a good heart which no cynic can take from him.


The publicity has cheapened the goodness of the policeman's gesture. Good deeds should be done and not publicized. According to R. Maimonodes ben Moshe the highest degree of charity is exercise when the giver does not know the identify of the recipient and the recipient does not know the identity of the donor.

As Jesus once said: Let not they right hand know what the left hand is doing.

ruveyn



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06 Dec 2012, 10:30 am

The most irritating thing about this story? Jeffrey Hillman NEVER claimed to be homeless. It's all assumption by the errant media. They are the ones who reported it and were not right in their facts yet they turn around and try to get this guy killed. He looks like a degenerate and on the lowest rung yet the media hounds and hounds when they are the ones who lied in the first place. Unbelievable! Well that's the humans for ya. Never surprises me about them.