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Kraichgauer
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29 Sep 2013, 10:25 am

Thelibrarian wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
There is a distinction. While the English can trace their cultural roots thousands of years I think it's harder for somebody like kid-rock growing up in the US. For all we know he may be Polish, Irish, German and native American?


That most Americans are everything but British is a PC slander. To this day, those of British stock--meaning English, Scots, and Welsh--are still the largest group in America. These are the descendants of the group that founded American, and Kid Rock is almost certainly one of them. His last name if Ritchie. All of the Poles, Italians, Jews, Lithuanians, etc., came later.


Only cumulatively, but the single largest national group in America are of German descent.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Thelibrarian
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29 Sep 2013, 10:48 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
There is a distinction. While the English can trace their cultural roots thousands of years I think it's harder for somebody like kid-rock growing up in the US. For all we know he may be Polish, Irish, German and native American?


That most Americans are everything but British is a PC slander. To this day, those of British stock--meaning English, Scots, and Welsh--are still the largest group in America. These are the descendants of the group that founded American, and Kid Rock is almost certainly one of them. His last name if Ritchie. All of the Poles, Italians, Jews, Lithuanians, etc., came later.


Only cumulatively, but the single largest national group in America are of German descent.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Agreed. Interestingly, the designation German is as much an aggregation as British. Germany wasn't even a country until 1871, and even today ethnic Germans are of many different nationalities (e.g., Austrian, Swiss, Dutch, French).

One other note about German settlers: The Scots-Irish in particular were the original pioneers who pushed the country's boundaries all the way to the Rio Grande, north to Canada, and then to the Pacific. The Westerns of yore were actually about this group. Why? The Scots-Irish originally came from the borderlands between England and Scotland, where they fought first the Romans, and then the much stronger English for two thousand years. After the English prevailed, the most aggressive of the Scots-Irish settled what became known as the Ulster Plantation, where part of their job was to fight off the ethnic Irish. Then, the most aggressive of this group was sent to America. But since they were so difficult to deal with, they were ostracized by the colonists and found themselves settling in the backwoods on the frontier. These are your rednecks, hillbillies, crackers, etc.

Germans, on the other hand, tended to settle down and prosper with successful farms and businesses.



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29 Sep 2013, 11:36 am

Please use the "Post reply" button when you're responding to the post immediately above and you have no specific point from it to quote and address.
Otherwise most of the screen becomes filled with a series of repetitious and increasingly deeper-nested quotes.

When using the "Quote" button, please edit your post back to the specific point(s) being addressed - again, with the aim of reducing pointless screen clutter and repetition.


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29 Sep 2013, 12:54 pm

We Scotch-Irish are still difficult to deal with,I am proof of that.
The Germans liked to have the Scotch -Irish around if there was trouble with the Natives.
You could tell who was who by looking at the barns,the German barn would be painted,the Scotch-Irish would not be.It is interesting that the local railroad was built with German workers,not the Irish.My family did settle down,but we liked to get on the scene first and build a store.Then raise cows,etc....This worked out good for the most part(for us,not the people already living in those areas),we did try that in Kansas before the Civil War,the locals stomped us and sent us back to Mo. :lol: I'm sure we deserved it.And I'm glad it happened,I'd be living in Kansas instead of here.
For a good read on the Scotch -Irish,
The Scotch-Irish A Social History
James G.Leyburn,professor of Sociology,Washington And Lee University


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Thelibrarian
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29 Sep 2013, 12:58 pm

Misslizard wrote:
We Scotch-Irish are still difficult to deal with,I am proof of that.
The Germans liked to have the Scotch -Irish around if there was trouble with the Natives.
You could tell who was who by looking at the barns,the German barn would be painted,the Scotch-Irish would not be.It is interesting that the local railroad was built with German workers,not the Irish.My family did settle down,but we liked to get on the scene first and build a store.Then raise cows,etc....This worked out good for the most part(for us,not the people already living in those areas),we did try that in Kansas before the Civil War,the locals stomped us and sent us back to Mo. :lol: I'm sure we deserved it.And I'm glad it happened,I'd be living in Kansas instead of here.
For a good read on the Scotch -Irish,
The Scotch-Irish A Social History
James G.Leyburn,professor of Sociology,Washington And Lee University


Another excellent work on the subject is "Cracker Culture" by Grady McWhiney.



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29 Sep 2013, 1:31 pm

I will look for that book.This one also sounds interesting,some winter reading material.
http://www.southernscribe.com/reviews/h ... ritage.htm


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Kraichgauer
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29 Sep 2013, 3:55 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
[quo
Agreed. Interestingly, the designation German is as much an aggregation as British. Germany wasn't even a country until 1871, and even today ethnic Germans are of many different nationalities (e.g., Austrian, Swiss, Dutch, French).

One other note about German settlers: The Scots-Irish in particular were the original pioneers who pushed the country's boundaries all the way to the Rio Grande, north to Canada, and then to the Pacific. The Westerns of yore were actually about this group. Why? The Scots-Irish originally came from the borderlands between England and Scotland, where they fought first the Romans, and then the much stronger English for two thousand years. After the English prevailed, the most aggressive of the Scots-Irish settled what became known as the Ulster Plantation, where part of their job was to fight off the ethnic Irish. Then, the most aggressive of this group was sent to America. But since they were so difficult to deal with, they were ostracized by the colonists and found themselves settling in the backwoods on the frontier. These are your rednecks, hillbillies, crackers, etc.

Germans, on the other hand, tended to settle down and prosper with successful farms and businesses.


Actually, my Dad's people (mostly of German stock), while settlers, had taken part in the western expansion from the Dakotas to the Pacific Northwest.
The Germans had also had had a long history of fighting the Romans, being the only native population to permanently free themselves from Roman rule (Battle of the Teutoberg Forest, 9A.D.), then by the 6h century found themselves (in particular, the Franks) the heirs of Rome in the west. It was their own disunity, based on tribalism, that had caused their power to wane in later times.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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29 Sep 2013, 4:01 pm

Misslizard wrote:
I will look for that book.This one also sounds interesting,some winter reading material.
http://www.southernscribe.com/reviews/h ... ritage.htm


I have that one sitting on my shelf actually, though I haven't read it. My interest lately has been in the study of liberalism. But I'm sure I will get back to this. There is also a book on how the Scots-Irish transformed from Southern and hillbilly to cowboy as they moved into Texas and the west.



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29 Sep 2013, 4:06 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
Ann, actually I don't think Islam holds much appeal for the native populations of any Western nation.


A lot of the people that join Islam in countries like the UK are white women that have bagged themselves Muslim husbands.

Non-Muslim men are often told in no uncertain terms to stay away from Muslim women. Or else.



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29 Sep 2013, 4:09 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
Ann, what I am curious about is how socially acceptable her conversion was.


I know one female convert to Islam. She converted because she has a Muslim husband.

She's so horribly overbearing and gobby (and so, well, anti-the Islamic view of women) that, frankly, the idiot she married is welcome to her. I don't like him much either.



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29 Sep 2013, 4:22 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
I will look for that book.This one also sounds interesting,some winter reading material.
http://www.southernscribe.com/reviews/h ... ritage.htm


I have that one sitting on my shelf actually, though I haven't read it. My interest lately has been in the study of liberalism. But I'm sure I will get back to this. There is also a book on how the Scots-Irish transformed from Southern and hillbilly to cowboy as they moved into Texas and the west.


To be sure, cowboys in the west were not restricted to Scots-Irish. As cowboys were low on the social totem pole (they were after all called cow "boys," not cow men), a great many of them were black (like Nate Love), or Latino (such as Billy the Kids' friend Martin Chavez), or were Native Americans (very common in my own Pacific Northwest). But as Cowboys captured the national imagination, and whites actually wanted to do that sort of dirty, thanklessly hard work, the ethnic minorities were often forced out of their jobs. And it was certainly dirty, and thanklessly hard, as black cowboy Nate Love ended up getting a job as a passenger train porter, as working conditions and pay were a world better!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Thelibrarian
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29 Sep 2013, 4:24 pm

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer[/quote]

Bill, being of German, Scots-Irish, and English stock myself, I can take pride in all three. I'm actually a big Germanophile, but in this case I must add that the Scots also successfully resisted Roman incursions. When the Romans would campaign through Scotland, the Scots would spend hours submerged in icy swamp or bog water breathing through reeds until the Roman soldiers went to sleep. Then they would attack--and truly terrify--the mighty Roman centurions.

Your account of your ancestors' westward migration doesn't surprise me at all. Being one of the four founding stock groups of America, the Scots-Irish were killed on sight in New England, so relatively few of them settled there. But excepting the very northern fringe of the country, the Scots-Irish were the vanguard of the westward expansion. There are exceptions. The part of Texas I am living in, the Texas Hill Country, including Austin, was originally settled by the Germans, and explains why Austin remains a liberal bastion in an otherwise extremely conservative state.

This northern fringe of non-Scots-Irish also explains your liberalism. The Puritans, who settled the far north, were the original middle class, and tended to keep up with European developments, especially the Enlightenment. The Scots-Irish always lived on the frontier, and didn't receive much education beyond learning to read the Bible, and certainly not the fad du jour of Europe. And just as the conservatism of the early Scots-Irish still holds for them, the liberal ways of the Puritans still hold sway in the regions they settled. This is why the northern fringes of the Midwest are Democrat and liberal whereas the rest of that region is Republican and more conservative. Cultural patterns are remarkably tenacious. But, more ominously, the frictions we see today between "red state" and "blue state" are the same ethnic hatreds that have plagued us since the beginning of time, though it's not called that.

If you are interested, there is yet another delightful book written on American cultural origins titled "Albion's Seed" by David Hackett Fischer. I can't recommend it too highly to any American. It is mind expanding in the best sense of that term.

FYI, one of the moderators is on a jihad right now against hitting the quote button. Beware.



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29 Sep 2013, 4:28 pm

Tequila wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Ann, actually I don't think Islam holds much appeal for the native populations of any Western nation.


A lot of the people that join Islam in countries like the UK are white women that have bagged themselves Muslim husbands.

Non-Muslim men are often told in no uncertain terms to stay away from Muslim women. Or else.


I understand. And the police will go after the natives before they will the Muslims. For example, the police are after the EDL big time despite the fact they are hardly criminally misbehaving while very real Muslim crimes elicit little more than a yawn from the authorities.

Unlike fascism, which is the state against foreign countries and despised minority groups, as was the case with communism, liberalism is where the state declares war on the native population.



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29 Sep 2013, 4:30 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Bill, being of German, Scots-Irish, and English stock myself, I can take pride in all three. I'm actually a big Germanophile, but in this case I must add that the Scots also successfully resisted Roman incursions. When the Romans would campaign through Scotland, the Scots would spend hours submerged in icy swamp or bog water breathing through reeds until the Roman soldiers went to sleep. Then they would attack--and truly terrify--the mighty Roman centurions.

Your account of your ancestors' westward migration doesn't surprise me at all. Being one of the four founding stock groups of America, the Scots-Irish were killed on sight in New England, so relatively few of them settled there. But excepting the very northern fringe of the country, the Scots-Irish were the vanguard of the westward expansion. There are exceptions. The part of Texas I am living in, the Texas Hill Country, including Austin, was originally settled by the Germans, and explains why Austin remains a liberal bastion in an otherwise extremely conservative state.

This northern fringe of non-Scots-Irish also explains your liberalism. The Puritans, who settled the far north, were the original middle class, and tended to keep up with European developments, especially the Enlightenment. The Scots-Irish always lived on the frontier, and didn't receive much education beyond learning to read the Bible, and certainly not the fad du jour of Europe. And just as the conservatism of the early Scots-Irish still holds for them, the liberal ways of the Puritans still hold sway in the regions they settled. This is why the northern fringes of the Midwest are Democrat and liberal whereas the rest of that region is Republican and more conservative. Cultural patterns are remarkably tenacious. But, more ominously, the frictions we see today between "red state" and "blue state" are the same ethnic hatreds that have plagued us since the beginning of time, though it's not called that.

If you are interested, there is yet another delightful book written on American cultural origins titled "Albion's Seed" by David Hackett Fischer. I can't recommend it too highly to any American. It is mind expanding in the best sense of that term.

FYI, one of the moderators is on a jihad right now against hitting the quote button. Beware.[/quote]

Thank you for recommending Albion's Seed.
Scots-Irish were shot on sight in New England?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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29 Sep 2013, 4:53 pm

You are correct to say that the Scots-Irish group, of which cowboy culture was a manifestation, never even attempted to keep itself racially pure. Despite this, the vast majority of hillbillies, crackers, and cowboys were racially Scots-Irish or borderland English. And the vast majority of the non-Brits in this group were Germans.

As far as being on the low end of the totem, they were then, and still are; hillbilly, cracker, and cowboy are hardly terms of endearment even now.

As far as working hard goes, life was hard back in those days, and few could avoid hard work altogether. Having said this, it was Puritans and Germans who are responsible for the so-called Puritan work ethic which is so prevalent today. Scots-Irish instead emphasized duty rather than work, which included living by a code of honor. In fact, one of the huge grievances of Southerners in the runup to the Civil War was against "money-grubbing Republicans" who respected nothing but money.

Granted, the movies stereotype cowboys. But we must remember that stereotypes have some truth in them, particularly their portrayal of cowboys as those who liked to fight, drink corn whiskey, gamble, and so forth, as opposed to hard work. These were the Scots-Irish. Even in the old movies and such, the small businesses tended to be owned by Germans, Scandinavians, English, and even Chinese. But rarely by crackers. Again, this is a carry-over from the old South, where bourbon whiskey was invented, gambling took place on Mississippi riverboats and horse racing. And where dueling was most prevalent. These are the things Southerners are known for, not hard work.

As far as ethnicity goes, there were some Hispanic cowboys, but they had their own separate culture primarily in parts of the southwest, especially New Mexico and parts of California.

Regarding blacks, prior to the 1920's, most of the country had very few blacks in it, though it did have some. Most of the South is sandy piney woods with very poor soils--cracker country. Blacks were brought here as slaves to work the cotton fields, which require very rich soils. So, prior to the 1920's, even most of the South didn't have many blacks as they remained in the cotton growing areas as sharecroppers, such as the Mississippi delta and the low country of the Carolinas. What caused the great dispersions of blacks in the 1920's was the introduction of agricultural implements that greatly improved productivity, meaning that increasing numbers of sharecroppers were put out of work. In particular, these technological advancements caused the great migrations of blacks to northern cities, such as Detroit and Chicago. Consequently, while there were some black cowboys, they were hardly common. And there are few blacks in most of the rural west even today.



Last edited by Thelibrarian on 29 Sep 2013, 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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29 Sep 2013, 4:56 pm

Bill, "shot" on sight might not be the right word, but the Puritans "killed" many of them on sight. This is why the major ports of immigration for the Scots-Irish were Philadelphia and Charleston instead of New York or Boston. Enjoy Albion's Seed.