American Dentist kills Endangered Lion in Zimbabwe.

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androbot01
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03 Aug 2015, 8:58 pm

Dillogic wrote:
Hey, I wouldn't mind hunting a lion.

Lion steaks sound good, in addition to the head collecting.

I get the steak part, but not the head part.
It just makes me feel sad when I see mounted animal heads. It seems disrespectful somehow.



Dillogic
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03 Aug 2015, 9:31 pm

androbot01 wrote:
I get the steak part, but not the head part.
It just makes me feel sad when I see mounted animal heads. It seems disrespectful somehow.


To me, it'd be part of a collection, embroiled in memories and out of respect; the dangerous critter is shown to all, and that its predatory visage will live on far longer than that singular lion itself would. Its meat is one for purpose, its remains another.

It's a headstone made out of...an actual head.



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03 Aug 2015, 9:45 pm

Dillogic wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
I get the steak part, but not the head part.
It just makes me feel sad when I see mounted animal heads. It seems disrespectful somehow.


To me, it'd be part of a collection, embroiled in memories and out of respect; the dangerous critter is shown to all, and that its predatory visage will live on far longer than that singular lion itself would. Its meat is one for purpose, its remains another.

It's a headstone made out of...an actual head.


Would you like to be memorialized that way?


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auntblabby
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03 Aug 2015, 10:00 pm

two different and incompatible mindsets at work here, "east is east, west is west, and never the twain shall meet."



justkillingtime
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03 Aug 2015, 10:04 pm

auntblabby wrote:
two different and incompatible mindsets at work here, "east is east, west is west, and never the twain shall meet."


Maybe, it's a spectrum and I am at one end.


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auntblabby
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03 Aug 2015, 10:25 pm

justkillingtime wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
two different and incompatible mindsets at work here, "east is east, west is west, and never the twain shall meet."


Maybe, it's a spectrum and I am at one end.

I'm probably just to the right of you :alien: :alien: fascinating that this seems to track one's political orientation also, the pro-trophy hunters generally are politically closer to the right-wing while the anti-trophy hunters by and large I'd bet are closer to being left-wing, at least in the manner that such are judged stateside.



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03 Aug 2015, 10:27 pm

justkillingtime wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
I get the steak part, but not the head part.
It just makes me feel sad when I see mounted animal heads. It seems disrespectful somehow.


To me, it'd be part of a collection, embroiled in memories and out of respect; the dangerous critter is shown to all, and that its predatory visage will live on far longer than that singular lion itself would. Its meat is one for purpose, its remains another.

It's a headstone made out of...an actual head.


Would you like to be memorialized that way?

Could it be any worse than being imbalmed and displayed in a coffin?


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auntblabby
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03 Aug 2015, 10:28 pm

yes, it would decidedly be worse because your life would have been foreshortened in the process.



Dillogic
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03 Aug 2015, 10:36 pm

justkillingtime wrote:
Would you like to be memorialized that way?


If a predator decides I'm the most dangerous game, then yes, yes I would.

Better than being completely digested and left as scattered bones.

A story and commemorative fixture in someone's human hunting den sounds pretty awesome, really. Far, far better than most of the alternatives.



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03 Aug 2015, 10:40 pm

I work in a hospital (and I think auntblabby was a medic). The mindset at the hospital is to keep everyone alive and healthy. I naturally include animals in that. As a child, I felt like an animal but did not identify with people. Anyway, it is so unnatural for me to think of being happy to cut a healthy life short. At least, Dillogic respects the animals. That is something. And is willing to put himself in a similar situation.


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auntblabby
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03 Aug 2015, 10:54 pm

justkillingtime wrote:
I work in a hospital (and I think auntblabby was a medic). The mindset at the hospital is to keep everyone alive and healthy. I naturally include animals in that. As a child, I felt like an animal but did not identify with people. Anyway, it is so unnatural for me to think of being happy to cut a healthy life short. At least, Dillogic respects the animals. That is something. And is willing to put himself in a similar situation.

that is charitable of you :wtg:



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03 Aug 2015, 11:52 pm

Incidentally, conservation of species with quota hunting would be a moderate stance if it's to be politicized.



neilson_wheels
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04 Aug 2015, 1:43 am

eric76 wrote:
neilson_wheels wrote:
.....................................................................
The poacher has removed a major asset from an area that has very few. He could have applied for a licence to hunt an animal deemed suitable to be culled. He did not and should now face the repercussions of his actions.


He paid $55,000 or so to shoot a lion and shot one that was old and quite likely to die within the next year or so considering the typical ages for male lions in the wild.

In what way is that not suitable to be culled?


He could have done the same thing legally for a lot less money so I don't see what the amount has to do with it?
Are you saying that just because a person has a big wad of dollars to wave around they can take whatever they like?

The animal he killed was still reproducing and was a major attraction to tourists, and their money, as he was more approachable than other lions. Tourists "on safari" contribute to the local economy many, many times more than hunters do, obviously the animal was worth far more alive than dead.
No one in their right mind would choose this lion for an early death just because he has lived longer than average.



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04 Aug 2015, 2:23 am

Of note, has there been any actual verifiable facts from the case itself (other than Cecil being killed and the dentist paid for a hunting trip; best to take Zimbabwe "officials" with the biggest salt-lick you can find)?

Say:

Is it illegal to bait a creature? How so? Are there ways where it's not illegal (putting meat out on your property, which isn't targeting any specific animal)?

Cecil has been killed. How do they know the dentist did it? Did the guides say so?

How do they know Cecil was killed in such a way? The poor shot leading to the wounded Cecil with days of tracking before finishing it? Did the guides say this? How could they know this otherwise? The "science package" monitors the vitals so well and reports it real-time? Cecil ended up in the park after the wounding shot? The dentist and guides crossed boundaries to finish him off?

Did the dentist know the guides weren't operating legally?

How do they know Cecil's "scientific package" was tampered with by humans? Guides again?

Why would the guides give themselves up when it'd be very hard to figure out who actually killed Cecil?

If they did give themselves up, did they think they were operating lawfully to begin with?

Did they ID Cecil from the head? Was this because they turned it in to be processed legally? Why would they turn it in if they thought it wasn't lawful?

They found Cecil's corpse in the wild with the tracker still working? So, they didn't break it when they tampered with it?

Who found Cecil? When did they find Cecil? Where did they find Cecil? The scientist gave the last location/current location of the tracker? A dead lion will be eaten to bone pretty quickly in the wild. Did Cecil backtrack to the park after the initial wounding shot? Is that why someone found his remains?

So many questions, and as far as I can tell, the only way it could be connected is if the guides spoke up for some reason or they processed the lion normally.

Just a wee bit too soon to jump on the internet lynch train of the dentist IMO. (Unless you don't like any trophy hunters, of course.)



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04 Aug 2015, 2:45 am

Dillogic wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Yeppers, all this talk about the evils of lion hunting has put me in the mood to book a lion hunt in Zimbabwe. It's an excuse to buy a new rifle, too. Think a .375 H&H should do?
:P


.375 H&H will get it done (I think it's the minimum in many places; that's being pretty conservative IMO). Lions don't need all that much compared to the bigger dangerous stuff from all the anecdotes I've read. They're pretty much Elk/big deer with teeth and claws. 9.2x62mm Mauser is a good substitute if you're short on funds, as Zastava makes a quality bolt gun in such for a bargain.

If no minimum, I'd probably follow in Bell's shoes and use a Ruger No.1 in .303 Brit (he used a falling block in .303 Brit when picking them off around the train tracks in Uganda as a teenager); I'd like an excuse to get one of those, and they're not all that expensive comparatively speaking when we're talking of conservation hunting.

If I lived in Africa and I had a problem lion, I guess I'd just plug it with whatever milsurp bolt gun I had handy; I guess .303 Brit is still popular over there and a common/cheap rifle (Lee-Enfields).

From my battery now, I'd get it done with 7.5x55mm and 6.5x52mm rifles (problem lion). Bell took most of his with cartridges of similar ballistics (including elephants).

An autistic man can dream. :)

They usually recommend something like a .375 H&H or 416 Rigby for lions. They can be quite dangerous at closer ranges. I believe Bell used a 7X57 Mauser but I'd have to look it up. Nonetheless, I want something that packs more lead than a 7mm. This is something I hadn't thought of in a long time, but thanks to this thread..... :D


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04 Aug 2015, 2:51 am

Since we're in an animal loving mode, how many of you animal lovers actually do anything for animals? I'm actively a Humane Society volunteer who makes time to work with shelter dogs every week rain or shine. Charity begins and home and I'm guessing none of us calls Zimbabwe home.


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