rowan county [KY] court clerk defies supreme court

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Barchan
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14 Sep 2015, 3:10 am

She needs to lose her position as county clerk.

If she thinks "traditional marriage" is important (and that her tradition is the one that everyone should follow), then she picked the wrong job. It's a conflict of interests, simple as that.



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14 Sep 2015, 3:18 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
No, I saw what you wrote. I just chose to address your claim that the inconvenience of her being thrown into jail was worse than gay marriages - which are now legal - not being recognized by her.


No, you didn't, or you wouldn't be responding to an argument I didn't actually make. This kind of thing is why I consider "arguing" with you to be such a waste of my time, it's like trying to play a board game with someone who tears up the rule book but insists they're "winning".


Let me break it down for you, and please try and follow along if you can.

I posted this some time ago:

Dox47 wrote:
Actually, I think the more relevant portions are the mentions of sanctuary cities, states that have legalized marijuana in defiance of federal law, and the DIA Chick-fil-A fiasco, all situations where liberals, such as many of those in this thread, support local officials breaking federal laws, despite all the mentions of SCOTUS and the supremacy clause and such. You don't get to call your ideological foes hypocrites while speaking out of both sides of your mouth depending on whether you agree with the federal law being violated, that's, well, hypocritical.


AspE responded with this:

AspE wrote:
Not all issues are the same. Civil rights are far more important then whether someone smokes a J.


To which I replied:

Dox47 wrote:
Actually, I'd say that not being thrown in a cage and having your life royally f*cked up for a victimless "crime" is more important than having the government recognize your personal relationship in the way you want, but that not germane to the point I was making, which is that it's hypocritical to support officials breaking the law in one case and condemn them in another, depending on whether you happen to agree with their action or not.


Thus, in context, it's quite clear the victimless crime I was referring to was smoking pot, not Kim Davis going to Jail (thought I do think that was overkill for civil contempt), and once again you've put words in my mouth and claimed I've made statements that I have not. Given that your initial reply to my quote actually included the AspE quote about smoking Js (viewtopic.php?f=21&t=292235&start=75#p6772123), you have even less of an excuse than usual.

So, once again, here we are. Are you maliciously putting words in my mouth? Is your reading comprehension so bad that you don't actually understand what is being said? Are you angry and are trying to piss me off again? Are you just not a very smart guy? A combination? None of this is new, it's been going on a long time, I've pointed it out before, and the fact that you're in the equivalent of my rec room constantly insulting my friends and acquaintances kind of rules out ignoring you.


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14 Sep 2015, 8:38 am

Since we're talking about homophobia, consider the following new study regarding co-morbidity:

http://news.yahoo.com/homophobic-people ... 32115.html



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14 Sep 2015, 12:09 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
No, I saw what you wrote. I just chose to address your claim that the inconvenience of her being thrown into jail was worse than gay marriages - which are now legal - not being recognized by her.


No, you didn't, or you wouldn't be responding to an argument I didn't actually make. This kind of thing is why I consider "arguing" with you to be such a waste of my time, it's like trying to play a board game with someone who tears up the rule book but insists they're "winning".


Let me break it down for you, and please try and follow along if you can.

I posted this some time ago:

Dox47 wrote:
Actually, I think the more relevant portions are the mentions of sanctuary cities, states that have legalized marijuana in defiance of federal law, and the DIA Chick-fil-A fiasco, all situations where liberals, such as many of those in this thread, support local officials breaking federal laws, despite all the mentions of SCOTUS and the supremacy clause and such. You don't get to call your ideological foes hypocrites while speaking out of both sides of your mouth depending on whether you agree with the federal law being violated, that's, well, hypocritical.


AspE responded with this:

AspE wrote:
Not all issues are the same. Civil rights are far more important then whether someone smokes a J.


To which I replied:

Dox47 wrote:
Actually, I'd say that not being thrown in a cage and having your life royally f*cked up for a victimless "crime" is more important than having the government recognize your personal relationship in the way you want, but that not germane to the point I was making, which is that it's hypocritical to support officials breaking the law in one case and condemn them in another, depending on whether you happen to agree with their action or not.


Thus, in context, it's quite clear the victimless crime I was referring to was smoking pot, not Kim Davis going to Jail (thought I do think that was overkill for civil contempt), and once again you've put words in my mouth and claimed I've made statements that I have not. Given that your initial reply to my quote actually included the AspE quote about smoking Js (viewtopic.php?f=21&t=292235&start=75#p6772123), you have even less of an excuse than usual.

So, once again, here we are. Are you maliciously putting words in my mouth? Is your reading comprehension so bad that you don't actually understand what is being said? Are you angry and are trying to piss me off again? Are you just not a very smart guy? A combination? None of this is new, it's been going on a long time, I've pointed it out before, and the fact that you're in the equivalent of my rec room constantly insulting my friends and acquaintances kind of rules out ignoring you.


Okay, I thought you were referring to your immediate post. I admit I was wrong, oh flawless one. My only excuse is that I was a little drunk last night (and yes, I concede that I might have a problem), and so my perception of things was not what it should have been. But in my defense, you had seemingly taken the side of that Hungarian b*tch who was kicking and tripping desperate Syrian refugees in another thread - or at least you were attacking me for condemning her - and so I assumed you would side with someone because she or he was on your blessed (libertarian) right.


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14 Sep 2015, 12:53 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
No, I saw what you wrote. I just chose to address your claim that the inconvenience of her being thrown into jail was worse than gay marriages - which are now legal - not being recognized by her.


No, you didn't, or you wouldn't be responding to an argument I didn't actually make. This kind of thing is why I consider "arguing" with you to be such a waste of my time, it's like trying to play a board game with someone who tears up the rule book but insists they're "winning".


Let me break it down for you, and please try and follow along if you can.

I posted this some time ago:

Dox47 wrote:
Actually, I think the more relevant portions are the mentions of sanctuary cities, states that have legalized marijuana in defiance of federal law, and the DIA Chick-fil-A fiasco, all situations where liberals, such as many of those in this thread, support local officials breaking federal laws, despite all the mentions of SCOTUS and the supremacy clause and such. You don't get to call your ideological foes hypocrites while speaking out of both sides of your mouth depending on whether you agree with the federal law being violated, that's, well, hypocritical.


AspE responded with this:

AspE wrote:
Not all issues are the same. Civil rights are far more important then whether someone smokes a J.


To which I replied:

Dox47 wrote:
Actually, I'd say that not being thrown in a cage and having your life royally f*cked up for a victimless "crime" is more important than having the government recognize your personal relationship in the way you want, but that not germane to the point I was making, which is that it's hypocritical to support officials breaking the law in one case and condemn them in another, depending on whether you happen to agree with their action or not.


Thus, in context, it's quite clear the victimless crime I was referring to was smoking pot, not Kim Davis going to Jail (thought I do think that was overkill for civil contempt), and once again you've put words in my mouth and claimed I've made statements that I have not. Given that your initial reply to my quote actually included the AspE quote about smoking Js (viewtopic.php?f=21&t=292235&start=75#p6772123), you have even less of an excuse than usual.

So, once again, here we are. Are you maliciously putting words in my mouth? Is your reading comprehension so bad that you don't actually understand what is being said? Are you angry and are trying to piss me off again? Are you just not a very smart guy? A combination? None of this is new, it's been going on a long time, I've pointed it out before, and the fact that you're in the equivalent of my rec room constantly insulting my friends and acquaintances kind of rules out ignoring you.


In all fairness, I've read the sentence in question a few times and have yet to take anything away from it other than a direct Kim Davis reference. I guess that make me illiterate.


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14 Sep 2015, 2:51 pm

ASPickle wrote:
In all fairness, I've read the sentence in question a few times and have yet to take anything away from it other than a direct Kim Davis reference. I guess that make me illiterate.


Well, you can read the words and piece together what they mean, so the problem isn't literacy, it's that you didn't read the whole exchange in context and so took the wrong meaning, which is not uncommon on the internet, but when the same person does it to you in the same way for 5 years and counting, ones patience for it tends to wear a little thin.

Here's the tl;dr version; Kim Davis was wrong to refuse the licenses, but people are being hypocrites by invoking federal law and calling her GOP supporters lawless when they themselves support WA and CO legalizing weed, sanctuary cities thumbing their noses at federal immigration law, etc. I happen to support legal weed and open borders, I just also support being logically consistent, and more importantly, fair.


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14 Sep 2015, 3:07 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
But in my defense, you had seemingly taken the side of that Hungarian b*tch who was kicking and tripping desperate Syrian refugees in another thread - or at least you were attacking me for condemning her - and so I assumed you would side with someone because she or he was on your blessed (libertarian) right.


There's that projection again; I don't pick my "sides" based on politics, that's you, I do it based on what's fair, and taking one bad moment out of of someone's life and judging their entire person on it is not fair at all, and you do it all the time. Not just you either, people like you, which means I spend a lot of my time busting lib/prog chops here, which is ironic given the mantle of tolerance and respect that faction constantly bestows upon itself.
The really stupid thing here is that I'm not even right wing, I'm barely even libertarian at this point anymore, I'm to your left on foreign policy, criminal justice, immigration, civil liberties, and a myriad other issues, but you're so mule stubborn in your black and white red/blue left/right viewpoint that you literally cannot process that, like what my head does when I look at a very complex algebraic equation and my eyes cross and brain goes fuzzy. The difference being that I know I suck at algebra and don't try to hold forth on it or tell people who are good at it that they're doing it wrong; you should emulate that example.


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14 Sep 2015, 4:39 pm

Kim Davis is now back at work. While she maintains her personal objection to issuing or signing licences for same-sex couples, for the moment she isn't stopping her deputy clerks from issuing them. She also questions the validity of the licences that she hasn't signed, although others maintain that they are. Hopefully the Kentucky state legislature sorts this all out in January, and then Rowan County can go back to being an otherwise unremarkable part of the state.

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/15/us/ki ... .html?_r=0


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14 Sep 2015, 5:08 pm

Dox47 wrote:
ASPickle wrote:
In all fairness, I've read the sentence in question a few times and have yet to take anything away from it other than a direct Kim Davis reference. I guess that make me illiterate.


Well, you can read the words and piece together what they mean, so the problem isn't literacy, it's that you didn't read the whole exchange in context and so took the wrong meaning, which is not uncommon on the internet, but when the same person does it to you in the same way for 5 years and counting, ones patience for it tends to wear a little thin.


A fair point. My context was framed by the thread subject as a whole. Just playing devils advocate in that the wording was ambiguous such that it could be construed both in relation to Kim Davis and to MJ. In such an ambiguity, I defaulted to the core thread subject. Apologies.


Dox47 wrote:
Here's the tl;dr version; Kim Davis was wrong to refuse the licenses, but people are being hypocrites by invoking federal law and calling her GOP supporters lawless when they themselves support WA and CO legalizing weed, sanctuary cities thumbing their noses at federal immigration law, etc. I happen to support legal weed and open borders, I just also support being logically consistent, and more importantly, fair.



As to your argument, the way I'd explain my ambiguity with regard to applying the supremacy clause would be to point out in the 14th Amendment, where it states:
Section 1, 14th Amendment wrote:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.


As I interpret that, the states cannot take away rights granted on the federal level, but it says nothing about states granting rights that don't exist at the federal level. As such, Davis is in violation of a federal right granted in June and has been rightfully punished. Washington and Colorado (and Oregon, Alaska, etc.) are in violation of federal law, but they are granting residents a right to enjoy MJ responsibly that the feds don't allow. They're not taking rights away, and thus I am okay with it.

I am willing to consider different views on this, though.


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14 Sep 2015, 6:03 pm

I'm going to guess that she'll mess up again in the future with her bigoted views and end up in jail for the exact same reason.

This is why religion needs to be kept out of a place like this.



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14 Sep 2015, 6:49 pm

andrethemoogle wrote:
This is why religion needs to be kept out of a place like this.


Are you suggesting religious people be barred from holding certain jobs?


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14 Sep 2015, 8:15 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But in my defense, you had seemingly taken the side of that Hungarian b*tch who was kicking and tripping desperate Syrian refugees in another thread - or at least you were attacking me for condemning her - and so I assumed you would side with someone because she or he was on your blessed (libertarian) right.


There's that projection again; I don't pick my "sides" based on politics, that's you, I do it based on what's fair, and taking one bad moment out of of someone's life and judging their entire person on it is not fair at all, and you do it all the time. Not just you either, people like you, which means I spend a lot of my time busting lib/prog chops here, which is ironic given the mantle of tolerance and respect that faction constantly bestows upon itself.
The really stupid thing here is that I'm not even right wing, I'm barely even libertarian at this point anymore, I'm to your left on foreign policy, criminal justice, immigration, civil liberties, and a myriad other issues, but you're so mule stubborn in your black and white red/blue left/right viewpoint that you literally cannot process that, like what my head does when I look at a very complex algebraic equation and my eyes cross and brain goes fuzzy. The difference being that I know I suck at algebra and don't try to hold forth on it or tell people who are good at it that they're doing it wrong; you should emulate that example.


It doesn't matter if you're to the right or left of me. I see something as right or wrong, and I name it as such. If that's seeing things in black and white, then I'm guilty as charged.


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14 Sep 2015, 9:50 pm

Dox47 wrote:
andrethemoogle wrote:
This is why religion needs to be kept out of a place like this.


Are you suggesting religious people be barred from holding certain jobs?


If your religion prevents you from fulfilling the duties of your job, you shouldn't have that job.

It would be absurd to propose that a christian scientist has an equal opportunity to be a pharmacist unless they are fully trained and do not force their beliefs on customers

In much the same way, if i owned a hog confinement, I would have no problem hiring a muslim provided that the applicant agrees to work with swine day in and day out.

Per the Obergefell decision, being a county clerk in kentucky now requires that either you issue marriage licenses to homosexual couples, or you allow your deputy clerks to do so.

Kentucky law also restricts anyone from changing the form, which she has done anyway.



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15 Sep 2015, 7:36 pm

I sincerely hope she and her supporters blend back into the woodwork whence they came.



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15 Sep 2015, 9:58 pm

auntblabby wrote:
I sincerely hope she and her supporters blend back into the woodwork whence they came.


That'll happen on November 8 2016.

Not nearly soon enough.



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15 Sep 2015, 9:59 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
I sincerely hope she and her supporters blend back into the woodwork whence they came.


That'll happen on November 8 2016. Not nearly soon enough.

how do you know those friendly folk won't just reelect her in a landslide?