Joined: 1 Jun 2016 Age: 65 Gender: Male Posts: 383 Location: Pennsylvania
15 Jun 2016, 2:13 pm
jrjones9933 wrote:
That's true, Tom, but I see a lot to indicate that badness of that type has specific causes. The shooter deserves full blame, and his father and religious leaders deserve some extra blame on top of that.
I have read, I believe from his first wife that he was not particularly religious.
It looks to me that this man was just a killer and it was a spin of the wheel as far as what he would eventually decide to kill.
Joined: 13 May 2011 Age: 55 Gender: Male Posts: 13,144 Location: The end of the northwest passage
15 Jun 2016, 2:23 pm
Domestic violence also has a strong correlation with mass shootings. In this case, he allegedly beat up his female partners and later took that violence to his other community.
_________________ "I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade
Joined: 12 Sep 2014 Age: 56 Gender: Female Posts: 2,820 Location: S.F Bay Area
15 Jun 2016, 2:47 pm
TomS wrote:
Lets see, what haven't we blamed yet...
How about the guy was a bad person?
Nah... Doesn't fit any agenda.
I find it hard to believe that any non-broken/damaged/mentally ill person can do such a thing as kill 50 people. But here in the US we treat most mental illnesses as moral issues, which all too often means that religion is used to "treat" them since there is very little else to catch and treat such things (and pay for the same). Religious beliefs and congregation can be a great comfort to people and it can be used to instill socially functional behaviors. Unfortunately, though, sometimes by adding on so much guilt or repression (because it's treated as a moral issue & some religion is built on such things) a whole new layer of damage is done to the person. Eventually, with the addition of enough rhetoric, one of the worse off - but still day-to-day functional - snaps.
It's a terrible social structure, and it needs fixing. Mental illness is not a moral issue & religion should not be used to treat it.
So, yeah...I guess wanting our society to treat mental health the same as say, cholesterol or smoking is an agenda.
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Joined: 1 Jun 2016 Age: 65 Gender: Male Posts: 383 Location: Pennsylvania
15 Jun 2016, 4:44 pm
Yes people who are not mentally ill can do that and worse. It often comes out under the shroud of war and conflict.
But what is mental illness? I usually mean it to be insanity, some types of schizophrenia, mentally disabled, etc.
Then there is anxiety, depression, bipolar, PTSD, etc.
Those are a sort of mental illness too. But with all the broad catagories identified today it would be hard to find someone, anyone, who isn't mentally ill.
So to me the dividing line is sanity, and knowing the effect of your actions. Otherwise no one would ever be convicted of anything, and personal protection laws would be meaningless.
I do not oppose treating mental illnesses both big and small. But the block seems to be more people not knowing or wanting to believe they have issues and/or not wanting to go for treatment/therapies (or following instructions). In the USA today you can get treatment most anywhere and free if you can't afford it. If anything the process needs to be standardized and streamlined, as the paperwork/redtape/long waits does deter participation.
I think we can rule out the wife as being any reliable source of neutral facts, she had vested interest in making him a "normal " brand of crazy.
And it seems the news was kinda not separating that the two women he had married. They are doing damage control.
I mean, as Obama goes for gun grab speech on HOME GROWN terrorism, this nutbag extremist TOLD his hostages he was doing it for "His Country" that is being bombed by US .
Actually, in this case, I think he must wanted to be a martyr and stop having a daily grind even more than religious fervor. I mean, over the last 4 years he couldn't decide what group he should support... Hezbollah or ISIS
Joined: 11 May 2007 Age: 54 Gender: Male Posts: 5,748 Location: International House of Paincakes...
15 Jun 2016, 5:51 pm
TomS wrote:
Yes people who are not mentally ill can do that and worse. It often comes out under the shroud of war and conflict.
But what is mental illness? I usually mean it to be insanity, some types of schizophrenia, mentally disabled, etc.
Then there is anxiety, depression, bipolar, PTSD, etc.
Those are a sort of mental illness too. But with all the broad catagories identified today it would be hard to find someone, anyone, who isn't mentally ill.
So to me the dividing line is sanity, and knowing the effect of your actions. Otherwise no one would ever be convicted of anything, and personal protection laws would be meaningless.
I do not oppose treating mental illnesses both big and small. But the block seems to be more people not knowing or wanting to believe they have issues and/or not wanting to go for treatment/therapies (or following instructions). In the USA today you can get treatment most anywhere and free if you can't afford it. If anything the process needs to be standardized and streamlined, as the paperwork/redtape/long waits does deter participation.
As someone who studies/works in/researches public healthcare/mental health, let me assure you, that bit in bold is simply not true. Today our jails and homeless shelters are full of mentally ill people who cannot get treatment because there is NO TREATMENT to be had.
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Joined: 13 May 2011 Age: 55 Gender: Male Posts: 13,144 Location: The end of the northwest passage
15 Jun 2016, 5:52 pm
Being a martyr makes sense if that's a way that he could absolve his sins and get on the fast train to Paradise. Do you have to understand what your cause really is for it to work, though? Religion is confusing.
_________________ "I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade
Removing the mentally ill from owning weapons isn't fair, though.
The majority of the mentally ill (that includes those with AS) will never do such a thing.
Really, all I see is people blaming gunz, Muslims, mental illness, and whatnot, with different sides picking and choosing the ones they like, when in reality if you agree with one you should agree with all. Nearly all people that own an AR in the US won't do such. Nearly all Muslims in the US won't do such. The same with the mentally ill.
You either go authoritarian for everyone (which is the most fair), or you accept these things happen (which are statistically insignificant, except for the victims, of course). There's no promise that authoritarianism will stop them from happening, however.
Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 47,795 Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
16 Jun 2016, 2:38 am
How about extending universal mental health care to anyone who needs it? But God forbid, that would involve... (gulp) raising taxes! Maybe the incentive for making those with the means to pay more taxes should be: be willing to part with some more money for the sake of your fellow citizens with mental illnesses, and you and your loved ones will be less likely to be shot to death.
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Joined: 2 Jun 2011 Age: 1026 Gender: Male Posts: 1,820 Location: Возможно в будущее к Россию идти... можеть быть...
16 Jun 2016, 3:13 am
Here... have some Evidence of how it is possible to hire any number of people with questionable history...
...rather than say any more I am just going to quote one of the comments that someone made in response...
mattclarknyc [il y a 1 jour (modifié)] wrote:
The 10.00 would refer to $10/hour, which is s**t money, but not totally inconsistent with the s**t money that Americans get paid nowadays for jobs that should get paid higher.
75 security officers for an event, any event at a private establishment, in America, would be considered unheard of. I am speaking as a New Yorker here, now. Go to any "club" establishment in all of New York (state or city, though I guarantee you NYC has bigger clubs than anywhere else in the state), and you will not find 75 security officers. If you're lucky, you'll find 10. Likely, you won't find 10. In Orlando? Give me a break. No chance in hell that any establishment would have 75 security people, let alone 10. Unless... they were expecting a war to break out. But hey, if the owners of an establishment expected a f*****g war to break out on a particular Saturday night, most establishment owners (I would think) would opt to not bother opening their doors on that night.
Would they pay 75 security officers to be there? $750 per hour? Hmmmm. Nope. They wouldn't make any profit on the night. Would make more sense to keep the doors closed. Wait. Did the owner post that ad on Craigslist? Who posted that ad on Craigslist? Well, I can tell you right now that whoever posted that ad absolutely knew that something strange was going to occur on that particular Saturday night. Cause let me tell you: no small venue in America has anywhere close to 75 security people working at the same time. Madison Square Garden might have that kind of security. NOT some rinky dink gay bar in Orlando, I can assure you of that.
...were that not damning enough against the U.S. Corporation's Media-System...
...I have another very interesting comment that I managed to find from another related clip...
BrockLee3 (il y a 1 jour) wrote:
Hmm... Three anomalies jump out at me about the story of the bartender being shot: Anomaly 1: At 3:30 - The guy said he jump over the back-patio fence and "eventually" ran to the "safety zone" that was setup by the police. Question 1: How did the police get there so fast? The "gunman" shot one burst of fire after another (allegedly). The police seem to have responded and already setup a "safety zone" within a minute of the initial shooting.
Anomaly 2: The guy said he ran through the parking lot and had to hide behind a car while his friends ran ahead of him. Then, he told his friends not to worry about him and keep going to safety. Question 2: Have you seen the parking lot of that club? It's TINY! Just Google Map "Pulse Nightclub Orlando FL" and use Earth View. You can see it has six parking spaces total! This guy is making it seem like the parking lot was a mile long. JOSHUA: NO GUYS! DON'T WORRY ABOUT ME! JUST KEEP GOING! SAVE YOURSELVES! FRIEND: Dude, why are you hiding behind a car shouting at us? We're, literally, 10 feet away from you and, literally, 20 feet from getting out of here to the police safety zone. Just get up and move, you idiot!
THE BARTENDER: Anomaly 3 - Part 1: The bartender was limping around in the parking lot. Once again! It's a TINY parking lot! Why doesn't the bartender just walk the 30 feet to get out of the parking lot and into the police safety zone? Instead of hiding behind a car in a small parking lot? Anomaly 3 - Part 2: The bartender said he thought he's been shot. He was shot TWICE; one in EACH ARM! And once in the upper back. Why does he THINK he's been shot? What's stopping him from LOOKING AT HIS ARMS and CONFIRMING he's been shot by use of his...oh, I don't know...EYES!?! Also, someone who's been shot in the arms and upper back doesn't walk around LIMPING through a TINY parking lot. You know who does limp after being shot? People whom have been shot in the leg(s). Anomaly 3 - Part 3: The guy said he took his shirt off and tied it around the FIRST, INITIAL gunshot wound on his left arm; then took of the bartender's shirt and wrapped it around the other arm. HOW DOES HE KNOW WHICH ARM WAS SHOT FIRST? Anomaly 3 - Part 4: Then, the guy and the bartender proceeded to dodge and weave through the parking lot... How do you dodge and weave through a total of six cars? Four parking spaces are next to each other and the other two are separate from the other four. The most number of cars he could have "dodge and weaved" through was four! WHY NOT JUST RUN AWAY TO THE POLICE SAFETY ZONE? Anomaly 3 - Part 5: That's the best "picture" they could get of the bartender? A drawing? Seriously? Actually, it's okay. That drawing show a very distinctive man with VERY distinct tattoos. I wonder if we'll ever see this man as more than a drawing (doubt it). Anomaly 3 - Part 6: The police said there was going to be NO AMBULANCE reporting to the scene where gunshots were heard and 53 people were INJURED and 50 people killed. Do the New York City ambulances not know how to "ambulance?" Isn't that the job of an ambulance? To show up where people are injured/dead/dying and take those injured/dead/dying people to the hospital? But this cop is basically the "Soup Nazi" of ambulances. COP: Oh, you are hurt and dead? NO AMBULANCE FOR YOU! (Please, read that in the Soup Nazi's voice.) Anomaly 3 - Part 7: The rest of the story seems like something out of a gay fantasy fiction. The police officer told me to lie down in the back of his car and he put the big, strong black man on top of me. I had to hold on tightly to his tight, shirtless body, close to my shirtless body. It was then that I told him my name and he told me his. We looked into each others eyes and it was love at first sight. I knew we were made for each other and I would give my butt-hole to this big, strong, masculine man and never let him go. All of a sudden, I could feel his life slipping away. But I knew I would never let slip from my firm grasp. Alas, we had to part ways at the hospital. I never saw this man again, but I'll never forget the ride we shared in the back of that police car that night. Not that I read gay fantasy stories or anything. That's just how I imagine they go (Yeah, that's the ticket.)
I don't know about the rest of you...but something smells fishy here. Wait! Did I say it smells fishy? I meant it smells like BS!! ![/url]
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Mental health awareness [and subsequent treatment] through ads, employers, and school systems (religious ones too can be offered to promote the awareness), should help society and offer tangible benefits, including increased productivity that can increase wages and profits, which can mean you can fund it without even increasing taxes much at all (government has an incentive to fit it within the current system--which means it'll have a much greater chance of passing than with the arguments that will pop up with taxation).
I doubt it'd stop these rare events that will happen no matter, but it'd help stuff like suicides from depression, and I'd say it'd help common forms of murder too that arise from unchecked emotional problems (cheating spouse murders, for example. If people know beforehand how to cope, then they might not get to the murderous stage of emotions).
But yes, mental health awareness and help will always help society due to how prevalent mental health problems are and the outcomes of untreated mental illness--which tend to be quality of life problems for the individuals and performing less than they normally would.
Joined: 13 May 2011 Age: 55 Gender: Male Posts: 13,144 Location: The end of the northwest passage
16 Jun 2016, 3:47 am
The NPR show On The Media has put together some breaking news consumer's guides. They're worth a look, particularly the one for mass shootings.
_________________ "I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade
Mental health awareness [and subsequent treatment] through ads, employers, and school systems (religious ones too can be offered to promote the awareness), should help society and offer tangible benefits, including increased productivity that can increase wages and profits, which can mean you can fund it without even increasing taxes much at all (government has an incentive to fit it within the current system--which means it'll have a much greater chance of passing than with the arguments that will pop up with taxation).
I doubt it'd stop these rare events that will happen no matter, but it'd help stuff like suicides from depression, and I'd say it'd help common forms of murder too that arise from unchecked emotional problems (cheating spouse murders, for example. If people know beforehand how to cope, then they might not get to the murderous stage of emotions).
But yes, mental health awareness and help will always help society due to how prevalent mental health problems are and the outcomes of untreated mental illness--which tend to be quality of life problems for the individuals and performing less than they normally would.
I agree. Better mental health can have a lot of positive effects on society. Back in the 1970s I could walk around the Downtown area of a major metropolitan area, and the streets were clean, there were no homeless people anywhere, no crazy people talking to themselves. I'm sure there probably were a few, but I never saw them. The cops probably rounded them up almost immediately and dropped them off at the nearest mental institution.
At that time, liberals had been complaining for decades about the conditions in the mental institutions, and they were right, they were bad. Well, then Ronald Reagan became president and he solved that problem. He closed all the mental institutions down and threw all the patients out on the streets. Suddenly the nice clean streets were filled with homeless mentally ill people. Some of these people were very dangerous and had been locked up for along time. That can not have a positive effect on society.
Then you add the proliferation of guns to the situation, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what was going to happen. In 1981 Reagan was almost killed by one of these crazy people with guns. If the president of the US with all his security, is not even safe from the problem them nobody is.
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15 Jun 2016, 2:08 pm
