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Jacoby
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11 Jul 2016, 5:29 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
Do you honestly believe that everyone who protested in the sixties followed MLK's example? You can't be that naive. There were plenty of riots and violence I the sixties as well. The thing is the vast majority of those protesting do it non violently. And for you do say anything else is just buying into the smear campaign. Also if you were 100% sympathetic you wouldn't be spouting all this right wing crap.


I don't think think the riots and violence in the 60s is the part we should be glorifying or giving credit for bringing about change. The radicals in the 60s did more to hurt their cause than help, without people like MLK who preached nonviolence and racial unity it would of been a complete failure. I've had a problem with BLM the whole time, I think the name itself is divisive as I and many others have said. It's sad that we've been reduced to boxing in ourselves by race and saying that all lives matter is racist. Also these protests really have no point like I said, what do these people want? For these cops to be strung up by a mob? They are entitled to due process but the problem is that there are people who have already made their mind up about their guilt even tho we simply don't know, I talk about poverty and drugs all the time and I believe I care a great deal about the black community. Certainly more than privileged Marxist college student wearing a black bandana over their face who probably have never stepped foot in these neighborhoods. Most Klansman were nonviolent, it doesn't make their message more legitimate or any less hateful. Again we need practical solutions and to bring people together instead of sowing the seeds of racial division, these people consider the very idea of a post-racial society to be racist so what do they even really want?



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11 Jul 2016, 5:34 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
Do you honestly believe that everyone who protested in the sixties followed MLK's example? You can't be that naive. There were plenty of riots and violence I the sixties as well. The thing is the vast majority of those protesting do it non violently. And for you do say anything else is just buying into the smear campaign. Also if you were 100% sympathetic you wouldn't be spouting all this right wing crap.


I don't think think the riots and violence in the 60s is the part we should be glorifying or giving credit for bringing about change. The radicals in the 60s did more to hurt their cause than help, without people like MLK who preached nonviolence and racial unity it would of been a complete failure. I've had a problem with BLM the whole time, I think the name itself is divisive as I and many others have said. It's sad that we've been reduced to boxing in ourselves by race and saying that all lives matter is racist. Also these protests really have no point like I said, what do these people want? For these cops to be strung up by a mob? They are entitled to due process but the problem is that there are people who have already made their mind up about their guilt even tho we simply don't know, I talk about poverty and drugs all the time and I believe I care a great deal about the black community. Certainly more than privileged Marxist college student wearing a black bandana over their face who probably have never stepped foot in these neighborhoods. Most Klansman were nonviolent, it doesn't make their message more legitimate or any less hateful. Again we need practical solutions and to bring people together instead of sowing the seeds of racial division, these people consider the very idea of a post-racial society to be racist so what do they even really want?


You just skipped over my point entirely. You knew what I meant you just wanted to stick to your talking points.



Jacoby
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11 Jul 2016, 5:40 pm

What point did I skip over? Yes I know most of these people are nonviolent and even say they have legitimate grievances but the vehicle that they're using is not one that is helpful at all. There is a violent extremist element and they need to be disavowed, it's not even just what happened in Dallas but rather violence all over this country. Look at what happened in Minneapolis the other day, that's riot not a protest. We glorify these extremist from the 60s but they're the reason why all their movements died out. You guys were freaking out because some 78 year old man punched some guy at Trump rally but you bend over backwards to excuse this real widespread violence from the political left.



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11 Jul 2016, 5:44 pm

Jacoby wrote:
[...
I don't think think the riots and violence in the 60s is the part we should be glorifying or giving credit for bringing about change. The radicals in the 60s did more to hurt their cause than help, without people like MLK who preached nonviolence and racial unity it would of been a complete failure. I've had a problem with BLM the whole time, I think the name itself is divisive as I and many others have said. It's sad that we've been reduced to boxing in ourselves by race and saying that all lives matter is racist. Also these protests really have no point like I said, what do these people want? For these cops to be strung up by a mob? They are entitled to due process but the problem is that there are people who have already made their mind up about their guilt even tho we simply don't know, I talk about poverty and drugs all the time and I believe I care a great deal about the black community. Certainly more than privileged Marxist college student wearing a black bandana over their face who probably have never stepped foot in these neighborhoods. Most Klansman were nonviolent, it doesn't make their message more legitimate or any less hateful. Again we need practical solutions and to bring people together instead of sowing the seeds of racial division, these people consider the very idea of a post-racial society to be racist so what do they even really want?

Are you jealous that white people aren't getting shot to the same degree? Seriously, what's your problem with asserting that black lives shouldn't be ended without a fair trial? There's nothing hateful about protesting to address this issue. What they want is a reassessment of the use of police violence. Maybe disarm all cops? I don't know the solution and I don't think BLM is asserting they know either. There's no serious violence going on on their part. The Dallas shooter was a lone actor. All they've done is shut down a road or two or got involved in some minor altercation.



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11 Jul 2016, 5:53 pm

Jacoby wrote:
What point did I skip over? Yes I know most of these people are nonviolent and even say they have legitimate grievances but the vehicle that they're using is not one that is helpful at all. There is a violent extremist element and they need to be disavowed, it's not even just what happened in Dallas but rather violence all over this country. Look at what happened in Minneapolis the other day, that's riot not a protest. We glorify these extremist from the 60s but they're the reason why all their movements died out. You guys were freaking out because some 78 year old man punched some guy at Trump rally but you bend over backwards to excuse this real widespread violence from the political left.


The reason why people kept mentioning that guy who punched someone at a trump rally (there were other incidents as well) is because he was just following Trump's statements. Trump encouraged violence, but the right just buried their heads in the sand and went "nuh-uh" The leaders on the left routinely disavow and condemn violence. Just because you want to ignore them doesn't mean their not speaking out against it. So there's a clear difference there.

And what's the difference of asking peaceful protestors to take responsibility for and disavow the actions of violent rioters and asking responsible gun owners to disavow all the gun crimes in America?



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11 Jul 2016, 6:06 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
What point did I skip over? Yes I know most of these people are nonviolent and even say they have legitimate grievances but the vehicle that they're using is not one that is helpful at all. There is a violent extremist element and they need to be disavowed, it's not even just what happened in Dallas but rather violence all over this country. Look at what happened in Minneapolis the other day, that's riot not a protest. We glorify these extremist from the 60s but they're the reason why all their movements died out. You guys were freaking out because some 78 year old man punched some guy at Trump rally but you bend over backwards to excuse this real widespread violence from the political left.


The reason why people kept mentioning that guy who punched someone at a trump rally (there were other incidents as well) is because he was just following Trump's statements. Trump encouraged violence, but the right just buried their heads in the sand and went "nuh-uh" The leaders on the left routinely disavow and condemn violence. Just because you want to ignore them doesn't mean their not speaking out against it. So there's a clear difference there.

And what's the difference of asking peaceful protestors to take responsibility for and disavow the actions of violent rioters and asking responsible gun owners to disavow all the gun crimes in America?


The whole being there on the ground and participating part maybe is the biggest difference, they associate themselves. Your analogy about gun owners makes no sense.

Trump supporters aren't violent, they have faced violence by mobs of people and there are a lot of people on the left saying serves them right. Trump doesn't encourage violence, he explicitly says it over and over again at his rallies. People are making excuses for the violence that has perpetrated at these so called protests, they've done far far more and nobody is disavowing them or trying to stop them.



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11 Jul 2016, 6:19 pm



Jacoby
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11 Jul 2016, 6:35 pm



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11 Jul 2016, 6:40 pm

Jacoby,

I'm sorry you don't understand the gun analogy. It makes sense, trust me. Just go back and look at it again and it might come to you.

Anyway this stupid idea that these people don't have a valid message because their not also just as loudly protesting this other separate issues just keeps coming up. Regardless of how ridiculous that argument is, people keep saying it.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016 ... hup-lv.cnn



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11 Jul 2016, 7:09 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
Jacoby,

I'm sorry you don't understand the gun analogy. It makes sense, trust me. Just go back and look at it again and it might come to you.

Anyway this stupid idea that these people don't have a valid message because their not also just as loudly protesting this other separate issues just keeps coming up. Regardless of how ridiculous that argument is, people keep saying it.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016 ... hup-lv.cnn


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11 Jul 2016, 7:16 pm

I've said there are legitimate grievances multiple times, this vehicle they've chosen will not help them address them however and actually will drive people further apart. Do they want a discussion, do they want solutions? Or do they want to throw a temper tantrum and to destroy and say look at me? How is that helping anybody? I get venting, I get a a community grieving, but this is much bigger than that. I feel I care about the black community a great deal, I grew up in one of the poorest major cities in America with a black population that is particularly downtrodden. There is no black middle class where I'm from and it's one of the most segregated cities in America which is particularly sad given this is supposed to be the birthplace of both radical Republicanism that brought about the end of slavery and the progressive movement. There is a real ghetto in every sense of the word. I had a progressive education and we learned about Dr. King every year and we're not living up to his credo, we're becoming more divided and more defined by race day by day it seems.



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11 Jul 2016, 7:21 pm

Jacoby wrote:
I've said there are legitimate grievances multiple times, this vehicle they've chosen will not help them address them however and actually will drive people further apart. Do they want a discussion, do they want solutions? Or do they want to throw a temper tantrum and to destroy and say look at me? How is that helping anybody? I get venting, a get a community grieving, but this is much bigger than that. I feel I care about the black community greatly, I grew up in one of the poorest major cities in America with a black population that is particularly downtrodden. There is no black middle class and it's one of the most segregated cities in America which is particularly sad given this is supposed to be the birthplace of both radical Republicanism that brought about the end of slavery and the progressive movement. I had progressive education and we learned about Dr. King every year and we're not living up to his credo, we're becoming more divided and more defined by race.


You're letting the actions of a few color your perception of the majority.



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11 Jul 2016, 7:42 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I've said there are legitimate grievances multiple times, this vehicle they've chosen will not help them address them however and actually will drive people further apart. Do they want a discussion, do they want solutions? Or do they want to throw a temper tantrum and to destroy and say look at me? How is that helping anybody? I get venting, a get a community grieving, but this is much bigger than that. I feel I care about the black community greatly, I grew up in one of the poorest major cities in America with a black population that is particularly downtrodden. There is no black middle class and it's one of the most segregated cities in America which is particularly sad given this is supposed to be the birthplace of both radical Republicanism that brought about the end of slavery and the progressive movement. I had progressive education and we learned about Dr. King every year and we're not living up to his credo, we're becoming more divided and more defined by race.


You're letting the actions of a few color your perception of the majority.


I haven't seen one ounce of good BLM has done, I feel there are a lot of people as with any movement that wish to use it to pursue their own ideological ends which is the death of all movements. A lot of the time the violence is cause or sparked by outside agitators, they're not even from the communities they're protesting in. We need practical solutions, we need dialogue, we need to stop defining ourselves as black and white but rather just as Americans. White and black folks have been in this country since the beginning, we built it together and almost as long we've been here there has been insidious forces that wish to divide us by race. One of the big reasons chattel slavery came to exist in this country was because the fear of the white aristocracy of the white indentured servant and the black slave banding together for their shared interest. They made it so the white yeoman feared the black slave, they made it so their livelihood depended on them being in chains, look Bacon's Rebellion and the divisions in this country start making a lot more sense. We didn't get here on accident.



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11 Jul 2016, 8:17 pm

Jacoby wrote:
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The crowd was largely mixed, as a matter of fact, with the whites admittedly being the majority, but with a great many blacks and Latinos. And so what if there were a lot of whites? Whites can't feel empathy for blacks and others? And who says that an all black crowd would have rioted? Blacks aren't the only people who have to deal with the police, but they and Latinos are the only ones who are genuinely afraid of the police, considering how it's just assumed black people are criminally inclined.
And yes, to say All Lives Matter is racist, because the people who are trumpeting that slogan have shown little concern for black people and their relationship with the police before this. To slam Black Lives Matter is to diminish the reality of that fear and history experienced by blacks.
And as far as Giuliani is concerned: he was very much part of the problem. As Mayor of New York, he had exacerbated racial tensions. His one claim to fame as Mayor rests with one day - - 9/11. Other than that, his tenure as Mayor was pretty miserable.


Giuliani saved black lives, New York City was a hellhole before he became mayor and cleaned it up. Giuliani is known for much more than his leadership thru 9/11.

I am slamming the BLM group, I think they are divisive and hurt their cause. If you want to keep saying All Live Matter is racist then be my guest because most of America is not going to buy that and be deeply offended by it, just rage and no practical solutions does not make a legitimate civil rights organization. I've said this many times but I actually grew up in a black city and went to black schools and have dealt with these very same police, I 100% understand the issue but this is not the vehicle to helps or heals the community but rather one that destroys it.

I'll leave it to the girlfriend of Philando Castile to explain



Plenty of black New Yorkers would disagree.
And yes, all lives do matter. It's just that in practice, black lives haven't always.


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12 Jul 2016, 8:37 am

Here's a very powerful Facebook post from a black New York cop:

https://m.facebook.com/jay.stalien/post ... 2818974402

A man of real depth and character going by that I would say.



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12 Jul 2016, 10:10 am

I talked to my friend who supports BLM. He says people like that^ black NYC cop have been brainwashed by "the system" and black people are NOT responsible for their crimes, uneducation, unemployment, incarceration, and failures as fathers. It's "the system" because "the system" is racist.

Whatever, dude.