The Body Positive and Fat Acceptance Movement

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tensordyne
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02 Apr 2017, 7:54 pm

Few answers.

@Sweatpea: Vegans are not supposed to use or eat animal products of any kind (definition). Vegetarians can and very often do have dairy/milk.

@Kraichgauer: "No, meat just tastes better to me." Are you trolling or is there another cause for your lack of interest in actual debate? The No part seemingly gets rid of supposed counterargumentation, but really it is quite a boring response indicative of a lack of willingness to actually engage in meaningful discussion. No, you are wrong. Good, now both of us are children and I can move on from this meaningless excercise. [x] ignore.

@friedmacguffins: Soviet Russia was a mess. If they caused famines based on whatever idealogical nonsense they believed in I am not at all surprised. If you want me to name drop I can give you some doozies. World Health Organization recommends a plant strong diet. I could look up the list for you if you want, it has a number of very reputable organizations associated with it.

People exist within a given society with differing cultural norms. Most of the cultures throughout history have been plant-based with a main starchy foodsource (rice, quinoa, oats...) as the driver, and they all did quite well thank you. If your society is subsistence, than life can be tough, eating rats and dogs if you can find them kind of thing. Suggestion: find out what plants grow naturally in your region that you can eat and learn to identify them. Bugs are the next best thing to plants in terms of nutritional profile so make some bug lentil soup with that tin-pot you keep from the authorities.

I am sorry you had to suffer in a society lead by irrational people. I am in one right now too, so I can understand the feeling somewhat. Lack of food is never a good thing though. That is not what this is about, the right food for our future should be the topic of the discussion. If you do not believe in the scientific method then I will not try to convince you, but if you think the scientists and engineers who make your planes and cell-phones know what they are talking about, then perhaps we have more to discuss in that vain.

There are three main body types, ectomorphs[skinny], endomorphs[average] and mesomorphs[bulky]. It is an interesting hypothesis that some people are naturally fat (and there are medical conditions that lead to abnormal metabolisms, example 'hyper/hypo-thyroidism'), but the idea is not correct. If you are overweight passed the point of your body type, it is because you have a disease, pure and simple. There is no perfect indicator of when you are perfect, but don't count the carbs, just eat as much as you want and get excercise, you will feel great.

On meat. It is a mixed bag. I am not against survival, I am for rationality. Nature is red in both tooth and claw because protein is very important, but we do get waaaay too much of it. So if I was stuck out on some island, I will do what it takes to survive. I value my brain more than a fish's brain, but when I get back to land .

@BettaPonic: Chicken, In general, or vegan alternatives?

However, I would love to answer the question of vegan alternatives. Vegan chicken is the easiest, tofu. Tastes like chicken. Getting off of the grid is good, love to here about permaculture, aquaculture or any of that. Chickens are interesting. If you want diseases, go for it.


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02 Apr 2017, 11:59 pm

tensordyne wrote:
Few answers.

@Sweatpea: Vegans are not supposed to use or eat animal products of any kind (definition). Vegetarians can and very often do have dairy/milk.

@Kraichgauer: "No, meat just tastes better to me." Are you trolling or is there another cause for your lack of interest in actual debate? The No part seemingly gets rid of supposed counterargumentation, but really it is quite a boring response indicative of a lack of willingness to actually engage in meaningful discussion. No, you are wrong. Good, now both of us are children and I can move on from this meaningless excercise. [x] ignore.

@friedmacguffins: Soviet Russia was a mess. If they caused famines based on whatever idealogical nonsense they believed in I am not at all surprised. If you want me to name drop I can give you some doozies. World Health Organization recommends a plant strong diet. I could look up the list for you if you want, it has a number of very reputable organizations associated with it.

People exist within a given society with differing cultural norms. Most of the cultures throughout history have been plant-based with a main starchy foodsource (rice, quinoa, oats...) as the driver, and they all did quite well thank you. If your society is subsistence, than life can be tough, eating rats and dogs if you can find them kind of thing. Suggestion: find out what plants grow naturally in your region that you can eat and learn to identify them. Bugs are the next best thing to plants in terms of nutritional profile so make some bug lentil soup with that tin-pot you keep from the authorities.

I am sorry you had to suffer in a society lead by irrational people. I am in one right now too, so I can understand the feeling somewhat. Lack of food is never a good thing though. That is not what this is about, the right food for our future should be the topic of the discussion. If you do not believe in the scientific method then I will not try to convince you, but if you think the scientists and engineers who make your planes and cell-phones know what they are talking about, then perhaps we have more to discuss in that vain.

There are three main body types, ectomorphs[skinny], endomorphs[average] and mesomorphs[bulky]. It is an interesting hypothesis that some people are naturally fat (and there are medical conditions that lead to abnormal metabolisms, example 'hyper/hypo-thyroidism'), but the idea is not correct. If you are overweight passed the point of your body type, it is because you have a disease, pure and simple. There is no perfect indicator of when you are perfect, but don't count the carbs, just eat as much as you want and get excercise, you will feel great.

On meat. It is a mixed bag. I am not against survival, I am for rationality. Nature is red in both tooth and claw because protein is very important, but we do get waaaay too much of it. So if I was stuck out on some island, I will do what it takes to survive. I value my brain more than a fish's brain, but when I get back to land .

@BettaPonic: Chicken, In general, or vegan alternatives?

However, I would love to answer the question of vegan alternatives. Vegan chicken is the easiest, tofu. Tastes like chicken. Getting off of the grid is good, love to here about permaculture, aquaculture or any of that. Chickens are interesting. If you want diseases, go for it.


I'm not trolling. I actually just prefer meat. If you don't, that's your choice, and I'll respect it.


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03 Apr 2017, 12:02 am

BettaPonic wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
tensordyne wrote:
Meat tastes better than Veggies huh? Love it (I have heard this defense a million times, it is not rational). Crack cocaine is great too, but it is an addiction. Just because you enjoy something does not mean it is right. The meat you eat is causing you to be fatter with one foot closer to the grave, just like with crack or meth. Nice try :) Get veducated. Addiction is not a joke.

Respectfully, you don't know anything from the sounds of it. Perhaps you just want to have an excuse to carry on with your negative habits. Sorry, I don't accept your logic and hope that everyone can come around on this one, because it is so important to our group survival.

If you question my facts, fine, lets discuss and debate them. If you question my ethical reasoning, cool, let's dicuss. Handwaving away reality with some seemingly pithy comment is less than honest though. Saddly, it is a maladaptive self-serving misuse of belief in the face of contrary evidence.

Until your taste-buds change when you go off meat, you will not understand how good veggies really can be. Especially how good fruit can be. Your missing out man! And am I missing out. I get to have vegan icecream and vegan cookies, hell, even vegan cheese-burgers that has been reported as tasting better than the real thing (ok, less juicy, big woop, still pretty juicy). Your taste-buds are probably so drenched in fat and salt all day you have no idea what it is like to really experience the tastes you are deriding.

Thanks for falling for a common idea. It makes arguing for this position so much easier.


No, meat just tastes better to me.

What is your favorite meat? Mine is chicken.


Either steak, or pork ribs. :D


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03 Apr 2017, 3:32 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
tensordyne wrote:
Meat tastes better than Veggies huh? Love it (I have heard this defense a million times, it is not rational). Crack cocaine is great too, but it is an addiction. Just because you enjoy something does not mean it is right. The meat you eat is causing you to be fatter with one foot closer to the grave, just like with crack or meth. Nice try :) Get veducated. Addiction is not a joke.

Respectfully, you don't know anything from the sounds of it. Perhaps you just want to have an excuse to carry on with your negative habits. Sorry, I don't accept your logic and hope that everyone can come around on this one, because it is so important to our group survival.

If you question my facts, fine, lets discuss and debate them. If you question my ethical reasoning, cool, let's dicuss. Handwaving away reality with some seemingly pithy comment is less than honest though. Saddly, it is a maladaptive self-serving misuse of belief in the face of contrary evidence.

Until your taste-buds change when you go off meat, you will not understand how good veggies really can be. Especially how good fruit can be. Your missing out man! And am I missing out. I get to have vegan icecream and vegan cookies, hell, even vegan cheese-burgers that has been reported as tasting better than the real thing (ok, less juicy, big woop, still pretty juicy). Your taste-buds are probably so drenched in fat and salt all day you have no idea what it is like to really experience the tastes you are deriding.

Thanks for falling for a common idea. It makes arguing for this position so much easier.


No, meat just tastes better to me.

What is your favorite meat? Mine is chicken.


Either steak, or pork ribs. :D

I have started eating hawaiin pizza. I mainly like the pineapple.



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03 Apr 2017, 4:01 pm

BettaPonic wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
tensordyne wrote:
Meat tastes better than Veggies huh? Love it (I have heard this defense a million times, it is not rational). Crack cocaine is great too, but it is an addiction. Just because you enjoy something does not mean it is right. The meat you eat is causing you to be fatter with one foot closer to the grave, just like with crack or meth. Nice try :) Get veducated. Addiction is not a joke.

Respectfully, you don't know anything from the sounds of it. Perhaps you just want to have an excuse to carry on with your negative habits. Sorry, I don't accept your logic and hope that everyone can come around on this one, because it is so important to our group survival.

If you question my facts, fine, lets discuss and debate them. If you question my ethical reasoning, cool, let's dicuss. Handwaving away reality with some seemingly pithy comment is less than honest though. Saddly, it is a maladaptive self-serving misuse of belief in the face of contrary evidence.

Until your taste-buds change when you go off meat, you will not understand how good veggies really can be. Especially how good fruit can be. Your missing out man! And am I missing out. I get to have vegan icecream and vegan cookies, hell, even vegan cheese-burgers that has been reported as tasting better than the real thing (ok, less juicy, big woop, still pretty juicy). Your taste-buds are probably so drenched in fat and salt all day you have no idea what it is like to really experience the tastes you are deriding.

Thanks for falling for a common idea. It makes arguing for this position so much easier.


No, meat just tastes better to me.

What is your favorite meat? Mine is chicken.


Either steak, or pork ribs. :D

I have started eating hawaiin pizza. I mainly like the pineapple.


I must confess, I was never a big fan of pineapple.


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tensordyne
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03 Apr 2017, 4:23 pm

@Kraichgauer: "I'm not trolling. I actually just prefer meat. If you don't, that's your choice, and I'll respect it."

Quick open-ended question: Do you respect a Drug Addict their choice of lifestyle, or would you rather they change?

That is the problem, I don't respect your choice and am just trying to show you logically and morally why I do not. Since this is a forum, I am also expecting that people might actually want to engage in debate on such matters. I have no interest in hearing about what meat you prefer more. I used to like steak best. Now it would probably taste gross to me because my tastebuds have changed.

Do you not think eating meat has no possible consequences? That is what is getting to me. If someone calls you to task on something, it is pretty weak to hide behind, "well, I just like it!" But the openended question at the beginning of this post should help sort that out. Then we can know whether to bother going over it or not. You can not talk morality to a person who does not ever care. It just flops.

That fat lady on the bus, she takes up more resources. That is not fair to everyone else. It is her behaviors that lead down that road. Wake up Man!! ! If you are overweight, it is your fault, no one else's (well, in society that proposition can get complicated, but the principle is there).

All done.


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03 Apr 2017, 7:48 pm

tensordyne wrote:
@Kraichgauer: "I'm not trolling. I actually just prefer meat. If you don't, that's your choice, and I'll respect it."

Quick open-ended question: Do you respect a Drug Addict their choice of lifestyle, or would you rather they change?

That is the problem, I don't respect your choice and am just trying to show you logically and morally why I do not. Since this is a forum, I am also expecting that people might actually want to engage in debate on such matters. I have no interest in hearing about what meat you prefer more. I used to like steak best. Now it would probably taste gross to me because my tastebuds have changed.

Do you not think eating meat has no possible consequences? That is what is getting to me. If someone calls you to task on something, it is pretty weak to hide behind, "well, I just like it!" But the openended question at the beginning of this post should help sort that out. Then we can know whether to bother going over it or not. You can not talk morality to a person who does not ever care. It just flops.

That fat lady on the bus, she takes up more resources. That is not fair to everyone else. It is her behaviors that lead down that road. Wake up Man!! ! If you are overweight, it is your fault, no one else's (well, in society that proposition can get complicated, but the principle is there).

All done.


Then I suggest you keep your opinions about food to yourself. If I'm going to die from what I eat, at least I'll die happy.
You know what the difference between a hipster poser and a genuine bohemian is - other than that one is a poser, and the other is the real artsy, countercultural thing? A hipster will make self-righteous and pretentious pronouncements about how being a vegan makes them morally superior, whereas a bohemian will eat anything, and pretty much live and let live.


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04 Apr 2017, 4:19 am

tensordyne wrote:

That fat lady on the bus, she takes up more resources. That is not fair to everyone else. It is her behaviors that lead down that road. Wake up Man!! ! If you are overweight, it is your fault, no one else's (well, in society that proposition can get complicated, but the principle is there).

All done.


It is complicated because there are often genetic predespositions involved. Which means while it is the fat person is the reason the fat person is fat they may not have the ability to do much about it, similar to autism in that regard. A free society means having to put up with the unfairness of negative consequences due to peoples decisions to a certain extent.


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04 Apr 2017, 4:37 am

having battled my weight all my life, I cannot engage in fat-shaming other than to say that excess weight [from my own experience] is harder on the joints than average weight.



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04 Apr 2017, 5:25 am

Of the things that concern me, someone being overweight isn't even on the list. People need to mind their own fricking business.

Also people who fuss and fret all the time over stuff like that are also doing tremendous physical harm to themselves and killing themselves. Look up how being pissed off all the time contributes to heart disease as much as eating a steak.

Speaking of steak, I had the best steak dinner at the Buzz Inn up in Bellingham last weekend.

Bill, idk how it is in Spokane, but the hipster types in Seattle and the Eastside can get pretty annoying.



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04 Apr 2017, 10:18 am

EzraS wrote:
Of the things that concern me, someone being overweight isn't even on the list. People need to mind their own fricking business.

Also people who fuss and fret all the time over stuff like that are also doing tremendous physical harm to themselves and killing themselves. Look up how being pissed off all the time contributes to heart disease as much as eating a steak.

Speaking of steak, I had the best steak dinner at the Buzz Inn up in Bellingham last weekend.

Bill, idk how it is in Spokane, but the hipster types in Seattle and the Eastside can get pretty annoying.


I've seen more real bohemians in Spokane than hipsters, but I imagine they're hiding in the woodwork. :lol:


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05 Apr 2017, 1:33 am

[quote=Kraichgauer]
Then I suggest you keep your opinions about food to yourself. If I'm going to die from what I eat, at least I'll die happy.
You know what the difference between a hipster poser and a genuine bohemian is - other than that one is a poser, and the other is the real artsy, countercultural thing? A hipster will make self-righteous and pretentious pronouncements about how being a vegan makes them morally superior, whereas a bohemian will eat anything, and pretty much live and let live.
[/quote]

Keep my oppinions to myself, or what? You will... what? Flambey me with your words? Anger is a secondary emotion indicating that someone has done you wrong and one wishes to regain control. What wrong have I done you? I reframed your "lifestyle choice", you know, those things that actually do not cause yourself or others harm [religion, sexual orientation, dress...], and put it squarely back to what it should be, a stigma.

I never said anything about being countercultural. I am an Aspie, I probably do not have cognitive empathy, so I do not give two craps half the time what the "in-crowd" believes in or digs. Could care less.

I am morally superior on this one because the position is superior. That is how morality works. Sorry for the progress report on that one. I know it can be hard for some to take some times. Your anger mearly proves that the superior position is getting through to you, and it bugs you.

Going over the whole Bohemian thing / Hipster et al. stuff, that is like a kind of stealth ad hominem attack, which is hillarious. Funny how anger and ad hom go hand in hand. Just so that we are perfectly clear on what this is like by analogy. Imagine we were playing chess, and then, seeing you will loose, you start pounding the table like a little baby. I am not calling you a baby, nope, but it is soooo close right?

I assure you, I mean you no harm, and only the very best good sir. I will not be threatened with silence for merely social reasons. My version of being social is following the rules. I don't have to care about your feelings. I don't have to respect your choices (do you respect a theif for choosing to take your stuff, "but they enjoy it so much, jerk").

Any, of the, so called, "self-righteous and pretentious pronouncements", I am willing to debate about ad nauseum with you, are you? Hell, I do not care, let's figure it out together. That btw, is how you actually give ideas a fair shake. Honest appraisal, not quick dismissal.

Or was the intention of everyone here singing kum ba yah while lamenting the miserable states of your collective self body images? That is what it seems like is the goal here.

@Kraichgauer: No, you will not die happy, that is ludicrous. Sure, you will enjoy your addiction at the dinner table, but that heart attack is going to suck. Colon cancer, get ready for impotency. You feel slow right now perhaps, no, it will catch up to you worse later. Then the addiction will make you die in a miserable way, because death and disease sucks. Stop lying to yourself.


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05 Apr 2017, 2:47 am

tensordyne wrote:
My version of being social is following the rules.



clearly, not the WP rules. :lol:


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05 Apr 2017, 1:22 pm

Yes, lets talk about the WP rules. I think you are referring to this.

2. Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.

I am attacking the opinion that being overweight is a lifestyle choice. I think, * in my own opinion *, if you are overweight, it is probably more like being a junky then being some _ poor unfortunate victim of fate _. Read that last with a huge dallop of sarcasm. Point of fact, I am directly attacking the main topic of the thread, because that is the one that got me all worked up in the first place.

Fat shaming, pshaw, telling a truth you do not want to hear about being fat, more like. I was fat too. It is 100% your choice to be fat if you have access to more nutritious food. So in come the NT-style internet shaming tactics ... (yawn) Your Jedi mind tricks do not work on me any more! They never really worked, they always just messed me up, but at least now I know how to respond. Thanks for trying.

I am attacking the do as you will philosophy. If I consider someone wrong on something, I am willing to back it up in a peaceful and respectful manner, are you? Look your own self in the mirror. When I look at myself, I see a great bod, as well as a person who just does not give two craps about others feelings when they are insane in the membrane.

I have never attacked, directly or indirectly, anyone here. Logic dictates that if eating meat is an addiction, a number of persons here would have to be junkies. Certainly do not celebrate this reality. The addiction question was to see if @Kraichgauer is a moralist [ his choice, which I would respect, kind of have to, unmoral people don't care either way ].

To give analogies further, I am the kid telling the Emporor he has no clothes on, certain members on this thread, as well as society in general, are the clothiers who fabricated the nothing arguments together for @Kraichgauer to "wrap" himself in. Instead of 'tapping out' on the argument, he goes for very minor implied threats himself, to let me know, "leave me alone".

Normally, out of respect, I would stop there, but larger society is rearing its ugly fascist head. The story goes, in comes the truth teller, out come the requisite collection of villagers with pitch forks and torches.

Instead of using your implements of torture to try to get me to comply, why don't you use some of those torches to light a fire of discovery in yourself. While your at it, why don't you check out how bad people are at reasoning in general. The internet should give some great examples. I hope it will make everyone here more humble as to their own reasoning abilities and open to other's viewpoints.

Did you guys honestly expect that someone would not have a problem with the "Fat Acceptance Movement"? Shocker, I know, that said person might actually have a point?

Oh well, If anyone here wants to actually engage intelligently on these topics, I am open to the challenge. If all you guys want to do is pat each other on the back about having a completely preventable disease, then I am just not interested.

It is possible to both hurt a fellow members feelings here, and still follow the WP rules. If you are honest with me, I will be soooo suportive, you have no idea. It is just intollerable to have to put up with public dogma.

Adult up people. If someone is owning you in an argument, fight back the way you are supposed to, with logic and empathy. Do you think because you have a strong opinion you should not have to defend it? Do you think you get to be less than honest just because someone said something that hurts your feelings? That is the time to be more honest, not less. I will leave off with this one last statement.

The Truth Hurts.


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05 Apr 2017, 5:53 pm

tensordyne wrote:
[quote=Kraichgauer]
Then I suggest you keep your opinions about food to yourself. If I'm going to die from what I eat, at least I'll die happy.
You know what the difference between a hipster poser and a genuine bohemian is - other than that one is a poser, and the other is the real artsy, countercultural thing? A hipster will make self-righteous and pretentious pronouncements about how being a vegan makes them morally superior, whereas a bohemian will eat anything, and pretty much live and let live.


Keep my oppinions to myself, or what? You will... what? Flambey me with your words? Anger is a secondary emotion indicating that someone has done you wrong and one wishes to regain control. What wrong have I done you? I reframed your "lifestyle choice", you know, those things that actually do not cause yourself or others harm [religion, sexual orientation, dress...], and put it squarely back to what it should be, a stigma.

I never said anything about being countercultural. I am an Aspie, I probably do not have cognitive empathy, so I do not give two craps half the time what the "in-crowd" believes in or digs. Could care less.

I am morally superior on this one because the position is superior. That is how morality works. Sorry for the progress report on that one. I know it can be hard for some to take some times. Your anger mearly proves that the superior position is getting through to you, and it bugs you.

Going over the whole Bohemian thing / Hipster et al. stuff, that is like a kind of stealth ad hominem attack, which is hillarious. Funny how anger and ad hom go hand in hand. Just so that we are perfectly clear on what this is like by analogy. Imagine we were playing chess, and then, seeing you will loose, you start pounding the table like a little baby. I am not calling you a baby, nope, but it is soooo close right?

I assure you, I mean you no harm, and only the very best good sir. I will not be threatened with silence for merely social reasons. My version of being social is following the rules. I don't have to care about your feelings. I don't have to respect your choices (do you respect a theif for choosing to take your stuff, "but they enjoy it so much, jerk").

Any, of the, so called, "self-righteous and pretentious pronouncements", I am willing to debate about ad nauseum with you, are you? Hell, I do not care, let's figure it out together. That btw, is how you actually give ideas a fair shake. Honest appraisal, not quick dismissal.

Or was the intention of everyone here singing kum ba yah while lamenting the miserable states of your collective self body images? That is what it seems like is the goal here.

@Kraichgauer: No, you will not die happy, that is ludicrous. Sure, you will enjoy your addiction at the dinner table, but that heart attack is going to suck. Colon cancer, get ready for impotency. You feel slow right now perhaps, no, it will catch up to you worse later. Then the addiction will make you die in a miserable way, because death and disease sucks. Stop lying to yourself.[/quote]

No, you're not morally superior, you're just smug and pretentious.
And seriously, you say you have no cognitive empathy. Then why should you care if I die from eating meat? I think because it gives you the chance to be smug and pretentious, and to feel superior.
You go eating vegetables and fruits, while I'll actually enjoy my food. By the way, despite the long term consequences of eating meat, people who grow up eating meat have more muscularity and physical strength, whereas vegetarians have to take supplements for that, otherwise they are weak as kittens.


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