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cyberdad
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17 Oct 2017, 4:17 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Well... basically that's right. The Swiss are kinda German.

The German speakers are by far the biggest group. Swiss culture is rather Germanic. Comic Robin Williams quipped that the Swiss "are the good Germans. The OTHER White race" .

Hitler even invited Switzerland to join in the Anschluss (the union of Germany and Austria that occurred on the eve of the War).

But there is a French speaking region, and there is an Italian speaking zone, and there is also a usually neglected region where they speak Rhaetian Romanic (a Romance language separate from but kinda like Italian).


The German speaking Swiss population are the descendants of Alemannic refugees who had been driven from what is today the Kraichgau and Kurpfalz region (they overlap) by the Franks, who in turn settled that region in the 6th century, thereupon eventually making me. :mrgreen:

Weren't the Franks German too?



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17 Oct 2017, 4:36 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Well... basically that's right. The Swiss are kinda German.

The German speakers are by far the biggest group. Swiss culture is rather Germanic. Comic Robin Williams quipped that the Swiss "are the good Germans. The OTHER White race" .

Hitler even invited Switzerland to join in the Anschluss (the union of Germany and Austria that occurred on the eve of the War).

But there is a French speaking region, and there is an Italian speaking zone, and there is also a usually neglected region where they speak Rhaetian Romanic (a Romance language separate from but kinda like Italian).


The German speaking Swiss population are the descendants of Alemannic refugees who had been driven from what is today the Kraichgau and Kurpfalz region (they overlap) by the Franks, who in turn settled that region in the 6th century, thereupon eventually making me. :mrgreen:

Weren't the Franks German too?


But of course! It was a branch of the Ripurarian (or river) Franks who had colonized the area of south west Germany where my Dad's people had originated, after booting much of the Alemanni out. They still speak related middle and high Franconian dialects there.


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naturalplastic
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17 Oct 2017, 4:58 pm

Yes. The Franks were Germanic. From the Rhineland.

They overran what had been the Roman province of Gaul, and restored some order to the place under the Frankish Carolingian Dynasty in the Dark Ages (Charlemagne being the most famous of the Dynasty). The Franks gradually merged with the Latin speaking locals,and lost their Germanness, but the locals took on the name of the Franks. Gaul became "Francia", and later just "France" though the folks living there kept on speaking the local Latin dialect that became French.



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17 Oct 2017, 5:51 pm

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Kraichgauer
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17 Oct 2017, 10:58 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Yes. The Franks were Germanic. From the Rhineland.

They overran what had been the Roman province of Gaul, and restored some order to the place under the Frankish Carolingian Dynasty in the Dark Ages (Charlemagne being the most famous of the Dynasty). The Franks gradually merged with the Latin speaking locals,and lost their Germanness, but the locals took on the name of the Franks. Gaul became "Francia", and later just "France" though the folks living there kept on speaking the local Latin dialect that became French.


Most of the Franks who had adopted a Romance language that became French and Walloon (in Belgium) were the Salian Franks who had seemingly originated in the Netherlands, while the Ripuarian Franks of the Rhine country retained their Germanic language and culture.
The Merovingian dynasty was born of the Salian Franks, though in a few centuries the last king of that line was deposed by his Mayor of the Palace (basically "the Hand of the King," to use Game Of Thrones jargon), Pepin the short, founding the Carolingian dynasty of Ripuarian origins.


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17 Oct 2017, 11:24 pm

How close was Kraichgau to Alsace-Lorraine?


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Kraichgauer
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17 Oct 2017, 11:31 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
How close was Kraichgau to Alsace-Lorraine?


Baden-Wurttemberg, the German state in which the Kraichgau and the Kurpfalz are in the northwest part, is right across the Rhine from Alsace. One can find the same sort of dialect division in both Baden-Wurttemberg and Alsace, with a Franconian north and an Alemannic (which includes Swabian speakers) south.


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18 Oct 2017, 12:30 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
But of course! It was a branch of the Ripurarian (or river) Franks who had colonized the area of south west Germany where my Dad's people had originated, after booting much of the Alemanni out. They still speak related middle and high Franconian dialects there.

Interesting to see the number of countries with Germanic names but who's population isn't German speaking

England = Angles
France - Franks
Russia - Rus
New Zealand - Danish



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18 Oct 2017, 12:57 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
How close was Kraichgau to Alsace-Lorraine?


Baden-Wurttemberg, the German state in which the Kraichgau and the Kurpfalz are in the northwest part, is right across the Rhine from Alsace. One can find the same sort of dialect division in both Baden-Wurttemberg and Alsace, with a Franconian north and an Alemannic (which includes Swabian speakers) south.


A-L is where my maternal ancestors are from.


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Kraichgauer
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18 Oct 2017, 1:09 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
How close was Kraichgau to Alsace-Lorraine?


Baden-Wurttemberg, the German state in which the Kraichgau and the Kurpfalz are in the northwest part, is right across the Rhine from Alsace. One can find the same sort of dialect division in both Baden-Wurttemberg and Alsace, with a Franconian north and an Alemannic (which includes Swabian speakers) south.


A-L is where my maternal ancestors are from.


Cool. As Alsace and Lorraine had had separate histories till they were joined together in the 19th century, may I ask whether your people came specifically from Alsace or Lorraine, or both?


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18 Oct 2017, 1:13 am

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But of course! It was a branch of the Ripurarian (or river) Franks who had colonized the area of south west Germany where my Dad's people had originated, after booting much of the Alemanni out. They still speak related middle and high Franconian dialects there.

Interesting to see the number of countries with Germanic names but who's population isn't German speaking

England = Angles
France - Franks
Russia - Rus
New Zealand - Danish


English is actually a language descended from Low German dialects that had swallowed a huge dose of French with the Norman invasion of 1066. And Danish is a North Germanic language, as are the other Scandinavian languages.


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cyberdad
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18 Oct 2017, 1:55 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
English is actually a language descended from Low German dialects that had swallowed a huge dose of French with the Norman invasion of 1066. And Danish is a North Germanic language, as are the other Scandinavian languages.

Yes I've seen maps classify English as a west germanic language, it's interesting that if one was to run into the veberable Bede (an Anglo-Saxon chronicler) or even Chaucer (the father of English literature) in the 13th century it's unlikely we would understand them nor they us.



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18 Oct 2017, 2:10 am

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
English is actually a language descended from Low German dialects that had swallowed a huge dose of French with the Norman invasion of 1066. And Danish is a North Germanic language, as are the other Scandinavian languages.

Yes I've seen maps classify English as a west germanic language, it's interesting that if one was to run into the veberable Bede (an Anglo-Saxon chronicler) or even Chaucer (the father of English literature) in the 13th century it's unlikely we would understand them nor they us.


Very likely not. Though Frisian, which is spoken in the far northwest corner of Germany, the northern Netherlands, and southern Denmark, from which the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain had largely come from, still does bear a striking resemblance to English even after all these centuries (even though it has more in common with Low German). So I imagine Bede's language might not have been that far off from said Frisians.


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18 Oct 2017, 3:00 am

Geoffrey Chaucer, in middle English, expressed this familiar meme in the poem The House of Fame, in 1380: "Hit is not al gold, that glareth". so I take it that at least middle English has enough in common with today's variant, that we [me and middle-englishman] could haltingly communicate with one another.



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18 Oct 2017, 6:02 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Very likely not. Though Frisian, which is spoken in the far northwest corner of Germany, the northern Netherlands, and southern Denmark, from which the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain had largely come from, still does bear a striking resemblance to English even after all these centuries (even though it has more in common with Low German). So I imagine Bede's language might not have been that far off from said Frisians.


I attended a history lecture back in uni and a prominent guest historian by the name of Geoffrey Bolten referred to the English language as "Franko-Frisian"denoting the area you described around the Netherlands bought into Britain as mercanaries and settlers when the Romans left. What is mysterious is why they chose to call themselves Saxons rather than Frisians? Apart from places names - Suffolk, Wessex, Sussex etc the days of the week included a number of dieties worshipped by "said" Saxons namely Thor or Thor's day (Tuesday and Thursday) and of course our father who art in heaven - Wodin or Wodensday (Wednesday)



cyberdad
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18 Oct 2017, 6:07 am

auntblabby wrote:
Geoffrey Chaucer, in middle English, expressed this familiar meme in the poem The House of Fame, in 1380: "Hit is not al gold, that glareth". so I take it that at least middle English has enough in common with today's variant, that we [me and middle-englishman] could haltingly communicate with one another.


True, I think we could much easier learn middle English, but would struggle with Old English

Old English - Fæder ūre, ðū ðē eart on heofonum, Sī ðīn nama gehālgod.
Middle English - Our fadir that art in heuenes, halwid be thi name;
Modern English - Our Father, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name.