Trump threatens California with no federal aid for wildfires

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Piobaire
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12 Nov 2018, 9:29 am

LoveNotHate
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12 Nov 2018, 1:21 pm

Piobaire wrote:

That's propaganda.

The state owns most forestry areas in California.

Excluding some exceptions, when you buy a home, you NEVER own the land the home is on, but rather get private use of that land, however, ownership of the land ALWAYS stays with the local, state governments.

That's how government entities can pass property taxes, regulations, evict you, and reclaim their land if you don't keep grass cut/ice shoveled and/or don't pay them.

So, if the state wants to implement best practice fire prevention on "private lands" they can.


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beneficii
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12 Nov 2018, 2:14 pm

CNN's meteorologist Tom Sater disputes LNH's and Trump's notions that the current fires are caused by poor forest management:

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“We’re not looking at dense forest here,” Sater said while gesturing at a photo of Paradise, California, where the town has been completely wiped out by the fires over the past few days. “Especially down in Malibu!”

“Forest management has nothing to do with mountain winds coming down the passes at 70 miles per hour. Or humidity levels in one hour dropping Thursday from 35 percent down into single digits, dryer than most deserts,” Sater continued.

“It’s like taking funds from the National Hurricane Center until you stop all these hurricanes, it’s the same notion,” Sater said. “But more importantly, people died in their homes, they found bodies outside their homes, in their vehicles trying to flee, outside their vehicles just trying to run away.”


https://earther.gizmodo.com/cnn-meteoro ... 377986/amp

If I recall what I've read correctly, the Camp Fire is primarily a grass fire, not a forest fire.


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12 Nov 2018, 2:47 pm

As our valued member Raleigh could no doubt confirm, Australia has been experiencing terrible wildfires on a scale never known before, at an increasing ferocity and rate, with terrible loss of life, animals, livelihood, homes, everything. It is not just California that is experiencing this phenomenon, nor is it in (sadly) the USA that such dire tragedies are politicised, though most people in Australia recognise that the danger has increased due to climate change, not trees and the calculated scapegoating for political manipulation is spine chilling. Soul chilling. The indifference to the human loss stuns me.

The increasing dryness is a core hazard for Australians affected by it:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... to-no-rain

I agree with Fnord: blame is not a solution; it's a useful blindfold for some though.



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12 Nov 2018, 3:07 pm

I think something worth mentioning here is the reason that forest fires are so devastating when they occur, and that's what is known as the "Smokey Bear Effect." Since the inception of the National Forest Service over a century ago, there has been a no fire policy. What happens when we stop naturally occurring fires from doing their beneficial job? You get a buildup of dead wood on the forest floor, which ain't good. The devastating fire that hit the Smokies two years ago was a long time in coming. Before the establishment of the GSMNP over 80 years ago, fires normally occurred every seven to ten years, burning mostly below the tree canopy. I know, we can't be allowing fires in and around habituated areas, right? Probably not. But when we go against the natural order, there's a price to be paid. Nature has no sympathy for humans.


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Kraichgauer
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12 Nov 2018, 8:41 pm

Here in the Pacific Northwest we have our wildfire season, too, same as California. I wouldn't put it past Trump to threaten to withdraw our federal fire funds in the future.


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Chronos
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12 Nov 2018, 10:06 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kiprobalhato wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Disgusting just disgusting.
So his policy is “ Let them burn.”

He's warning them to get their act together and take fire prevention seriously.

Watch for fire experts on tv, who will be telling us all the things they could do done to minimize this and save lives.

It's like if a child is failing in school, and needs a scolding.


and what exactly is california failing at in this regard?

Looks like Trump and fire experts are saying California environmental laws are a factor.

Trump:"California wildfires were being magnified by environmental laws that “diverted” river water to the ocean but also said, 'Must also tree clear to stop fire spreading!"

Trump:"The environmentalists are doing something very bad, they won’t let us take the logs, they won’t let us take the dead trees. If a little spark hits it, they lose 200,000 acres.”

Weird, those were prior tweets from Trump that actually predicted this fire.

"Experts point to a century’s worth of fire suppression as one factor in allowing forests to build up a dangerous amount of flammable material. Tom Bonnicksen, a retired forestry and wildfire expert who spent years researching fires in California, told The Chronicle that forests around Paradise contained about 2,000 trees per acre when he studied the area about a decade ago. A healthy forest should have between 60 and 80 trees per acre, he said".
https://www.sfchronicle.com/california- ... 380388.php


Most of the fires in California are NOT in conifer forests but in hilly, semi desert regions covered in dense brush and chapparel.

Image

Image

Every year, at the end of a hot, dry summer, many regions of the state experience Santa Ana winds, or Diablo winds. These are strong, dry, often hot winds. The wind, combined with the very low humidity increase the likelihood of sparks from static electricity, and fans flames of fires that do start in the dry vegetation. While some fires are undoubtedly started by arsons, the past few major fires were started unintentionally by human activity/services.

As the population of California grows, more housing is being built into the hills and canyons, bringing with them construction and electricity, making the odds of a fire from electrical sparks more likely.

In conifer regions, once fires start in Diablo wind conditions, it does not matter if there are 200 trees per acre or 40 trees per acre because the force of the wind creates a fire storm.

That being said, Trump is trying to exploit a tragedy for political gain by appealing his voter base in the north eastern part of the state informally referred to as "Jefferson" by some of the residents there, who want to increase logging in the local forests because the region has little in the way of industry and jobs. The problem is, logging is not a sustainable industry for the region, and residents there know it.


In any case, most fires in California are not in forests and do not involve conifers.

Image

Shame on him for positioning himself as an adversary to those he is supposed to serve. His mentality is treasonous.



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12 Nov 2018, 10:15 pm

Well said.



Kraichgauer
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13 Nov 2018, 12:43 am

Chronos wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kiprobalhato wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Disgusting just disgusting.
So his policy is “ Let them burn.”

He's warning them to get their act together and take fire prevention seriously.

Watch for fire experts on tv, who will be telling us all the things they could do done to minimize this and save lives.

It's like if a child is failing in school, and needs a scolding.


and what exactly is california failing at in this regard?

Looks like Trump and fire experts are saying California environmental laws are a factor.

Trump:"California wildfires were being magnified by environmental laws that “diverted” river water to the ocean but also said, 'Must also tree clear to stop fire spreading!"

Trump:"The environmentalists are doing something very bad, they won’t let us take the logs, they won’t let us take the dead trees. If a little spark hits it, they lose 200,000 acres.”

Weird, those were prior tweets from Trump that actually predicted this fire.

"Experts point to a century’s worth of fire suppression as one factor in allowing forests to build up a dangerous amount of flammable material. Tom Bonnicksen, a retired forestry and wildfire expert who spent years researching fires in California, told The Chronicle that forests around Paradise contained about 2,000 trees per acre when he studied the area about a decade ago. A healthy forest should have between 60 and 80 trees per acre, he said".
https://www.sfchronicle.com/california- ... 380388.php


Most of the fires in California are NOT in conifer forests but in hilly, semi desert regions covered in dense brush and chapparel.

Image

Image

Every year, at the end of a hot, dry summer, many regions of the state experience Santa Ana winds, or Diablo winds. These are strong, dry, often hot winds. The wind, combined with the very low humidity increase the likelihood of sparks from static electricity, and fans flames of fires that do start in the dry vegetation. While some fires are undoubtedly started by arsons, the past few major fires were started unintentionally by human activity/services.

As the population of California grows, more housing is being built into the hills and canyons, bringing with them construction and electricity, making the odds of a fire from electrical sparks more likely.

In conifer regions, once fires start in Diablo wind conditions, it does not matter if there are 200 trees per acre or 40 trees per acre because the force of the wind creates a fire storm.

That being said, Trump is trying to exploit a tragedy for political gain by appealing his voter base in the north eastern part of the state informally referred to as "Jefferson" by some of the residents there, who want to increase logging in the local forests because the region has little in the way of industry and jobs. The problem is, logging is not a sustainable industry for the region, and residents there know it.


In any case, most fires in California are not in forests and do not involve conifers.

Image

Shame on him for positioning himself as an adversary to those he is supposed to serve. His mentality is treasonous.


Well, Trump can say California isn't properly preventing fires of sage brush (sarcasm).


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13 Nov 2018, 12:44 am

ICE has been diverting funds from FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) to pay for detaining more and more immigrants:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ice-is-im ... 000-people


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13 Nov 2018, 12:57 am

Piobaire wrote:
Quote:
Looks like Trump and fire experts are saying California environmental laws are a factor.

Trump:"California wildfires were being magnified by environmental laws that “diverted” river water to the ocean but also said, 'Must also tree clear to stop fire spreading!"

Trump:"The environmentalists are doing something very bad, they won’t let us take the logs, they won’t let us take the dead trees. If a little spark hits it, they lose 200,000 acres.”

Weird, those were prior tweets from Trump that actually predicted this fire.


Only a goddamned idiot would believe someone who lies 30 times a day.

the modern-day Pharisees and their acolytes still are straining at gnats but swallowing camels.



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13 Nov 2018, 1:15 am

auntblabby wrote:
Piobaire wrote:
Quote:
Looks like Trump and fire experts are saying California environmental laws are a factor.

Trump:"California wildfires were being magnified by environmental laws that “diverted” river water to the ocean but also said, 'Must also tree clear to stop fire spreading!"

Trump:"The environmentalists are doing something very bad, they won’t let us take the logs, they won’t let us take the dead trees. If a little spark hits it, they lose 200,000 acres.”

Weird, those were prior tweets from Trump that actually predicted this fire.


Only a goddamned idiot would believe someone who lies 30 times a day.

the modern-day Pharisees and their acolytes still are straining at gnats but swallowing camels.


Well said my friend. 8)


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auntblabby
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13 Nov 2018, 1:28 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Piobaire wrote:
Quote:
Looks like Trump and fire experts are saying California environmental laws are a factor.

Trump:"California wildfires were being magnified by environmental laws that “diverted” river water to the ocean but also said, 'Must also tree clear to stop fire spreading!"

Trump:"The environmentalists are doing something very bad, they won’t let us take the logs, they won’t let us take the dead trees. If a little spark hits it, they lose 200,000 acres.”

Weird, those were prior tweets from Trump that actually predicted this fire.


Only a goddamned idiot would believe someone who lies 30 times a day.

the modern-day Pharisees and their acolytes still are straining at gnats but swallowing camels.


Well said my friend. 8)

thank you good buddy :flower: or as a famous troubadour sang, "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."



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13 Nov 2018, 1:40 am

auntblabby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Piobaire wrote:
Quote:
Looks like Trump and fire experts are saying California environmental laws are a factor.

Trump:"California wildfires were being magnified by environmental laws that “diverted” river water to the ocean but also said, 'Must also tree clear to stop fire spreading!"

Trump:"The environmentalists are doing something very bad, they won’t let us take the logs, they won’t let us take the dead trees. If a little spark hits it, they lose 200,000 acres.”

Weird, those were prior tweets from Trump that actually predicted this fire.


Only a goddamned idiot would believe someone who lies 30 times a day.

the modern-day Pharisees and their acolytes still are straining at gnats but swallowing camels.


Well said my friend. 8)

thank you good buddy :flower: or as a famous troubadour sang, "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."


:lol: :lol: :lol: ! !!


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Chronos
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13 Nov 2018, 2:13 am

Scientists: Wind, Drought Worsen Fires, Not Bad Management

And the water from the mountains is not diverted from the rivers due to environmental laws. The rivers naturally run in to the ocean and the water that is diverted is diverted for human use. California environmental laws prevent water from being diverted from it's natural course.



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13 Nov 2018, 5:31 am

Chronos wrote:

The title is dumb.

Obviously, bad management in anything worsens a situation.

After months of Trump complaining, California just passed 1 billion dollar fire fighting bill that eases up on environmental laws. Are these scientists trying to say this won't help? That fire experts are dumb, and don't know how to prevent fires? Or that 1 Billion dollars won't produce better fire prevention management? If so, then that's a slam on California for being reckless with tax money, and/or that they have inept people working for them

California has a plan
-1 billion dollar state fire fighting bill passed in September 2018
-relax logging rules on private land statewide to make thinning forests easier
-allow trees up to 30 inches in diameter to be cut without landowners obtaining a state timber harvest permit — up from 26 inches now
-allow logging roads up to 600 feet long to be built on private land without a permit
-greenhouse gas reduction fund
-reduce the amount of flammable material in forests by thinning out brush and dead wood

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/31/ ... fire-risk/
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/12/califor ... ilout.html


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