Leaving Neverland - what do you think?

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Is Michael Jackson guilty?
Yes 72%  72%  [ 13 ]
No 28%  28%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 18

Tim_Tex
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14 Mar 2019, 7:52 pm

SameStars wrote:
I got very conflicted feelings... I did do some research and especially Wade Robson's story seems to be full of holes and lies. Like the final goal here is definitely monetary gain, which would totally be justifiably. So they had to spin it in the way that the documentary shows, so while I think a lot of it is embellishment; if even a fraction of it is true, it would be inexcusable.


Didn't Robson basically say the same things in Leaving Neverland that he did in the Oprah interview years earlier?

My guess it that since MeToo began, he feels that he is more likely to be believed.


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karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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14 Mar 2019, 8:04 pm

alpacka wrote:
If you seen the Michael Jackson documentary Leaving Neverland, of the 2 abused boys, what did you think about it?

I think James seem very true in his body language and story even if I always felt before that MJ was deeply misunderstood and innocent. The other guy, Wade i'm not so sure of. Getting more liar vibe from him, a lot of touching his face when he tell stuff (signs of lying).

I dont know what to believe, just that I feel sorry about James but at the same time hope MJ was as innocent he said he was.

If you search for Wade Robson and compare him to James Safechuck, at least I can see a huge difference between someone who's really suffering and someone who's not.

Wades pics are "off comments" and his blog also don't get people to comment. His instagram seem to be some sort of production as well...


I didn't see Wade's body language as showing deception but rather shame--not just over the abuse itself, but I also think he's struggling with a lot of guilt over previous denials because other kids got abused after him and he may feel some responsibility for that because he previously lied for Michael.



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15 Mar 2019, 7:37 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
alpacka wrote:
If you seen the Michael Jackson documentary Leaving Neverland, of the 2 abused boys, what did you think about it?

I think James seem very true in his body language and story even if I always felt before that MJ was deeply misunderstood and innocent. The other guy, Wade i'm not so sure of. Getting more liar vibe from him, a lot of touching his face when he tell stuff (signs of lying).

I dont know what to believe, just that I feel sorry about James but at the same time hope MJ was as innocent he said he was.

If you search for Wade Robson and compare him to James Safechuck, at least I can see a huge difference between someone who's really suffering and someone who's not.

Wades pics are "off comments" and his blog also don't get people to comment. His instagram seem to be some sort of production as well...


I didn't see Wade's body language as showing deception but rather shame--not just over the abuse itself, but I also think he's struggling with a lot of guilt over previous denials because other kids got abused after him and he may feel some responsibility for that because he previously lied for Michael.


That's pretty likely. It's super common for child abuse victims to feel guilt/shame about what they've experienced and not come to terms with it until much later. One of the victims' civil complaints (I think Safechuck's civil complaint) explained how MJ told him that the sexual activities were "his idea", and you can imagine how that screws up with a child's mind. I truly believe MJ convinced himself and his victims that what they were doing was "out of love" and the child was choosing to take part in such activities, so it was their fault.

Sexual abuse doesn't always result in bruises and violence. Sometimes, the child may willingly take part in it (or, in other words, not actively fight against it) and actually feel some pleasure from it, but it's still not their fault, because they are children who are unable to see they are being manipulated. The adult perpetrator is choosing to groom/manipulate a child to take part in sexual activities, and placing the blame on them. What's worse is that society, who is supposed to protect the victims, will blame the children because they still received sexual gratification from it and didn't try to fight off the adult.



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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15 Mar 2019, 7:49 pm

BlueIris24 wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
alpacka wrote:
If you seen the Michael Jackson documentary Leaving Neverland, of the 2 abused boys, what did you think about it?

I think James seem very true in his body language and story even if I always felt before that MJ was deeply misunderstood and innocent. The other guy, Wade i'm not so sure of. Getting more liar vibe from him, a lot of touching his face when he tell stuff (signs of lying).

I dont know what to believe, just that I feel sorry about James but at the same time hope MJ was as innocent he said he was.

If you search for Wade Robson and compare him to James Safechuck, at least I can see a huge difference between someone who's really suffering and someone who's not.

Wades pics are "off comments" and his blog also don't get people to comment. His instagram seem to be some sort of production as well...


I didn't see Wade's body language as showing deception but rather shame--not just over the abuse itself, but I also think he's struggling with a lot of guilt over previous denials because other kids got abused after him and he may feel some responsibility for that because he previously lied for Michael.


That's pretty likely. It's super common for child abuse victims to feel guilt/shame about what they've experienced and not come to terms with it until much later. One of the victims' civil complaints (I think Safechuck's civil complaint) explained how MJ told him that the sexual activities were "his idea", and you can imagine how that screws up with a child's mind. I truly believe MJ convinced himself and his victims that what they were doing was "out of love" and the child was choosing to take part in such activities, so it was their fault.

Sexual abuse doesn't always result in bruises and violence. Sometimes, the child may willingly take part in it (or, in other words, not actively fight against it) and actually feel some pleasure from it, but it's still not their fault, because they are children who are unable to see they are being manipulated. The adult perpetrator is choosing to groom/manipulate a child to take part in sexual activities, and placing the blame on them. What's worse is that society, who is supposed to protect the victims, will blame the children because they still received sexual gratification from it and didn't try to fight off the adult.


Yes, and I think this is particularly true of male victims because of how their bodies visibly respond to stimulation, and the abuser can use that against them by telling them they obviously wanted the abuse because their body reacted to it, when it's just a physiological response to being stimulated that the child can't control.

I don't think Wade was being dishonest in the documentary, I really think he is wrestling with a lot of shame and guilt and that's extra sad to me because the person who is responsible for it and should be the one feeling guilty and responsible escaped that shame and responsibility in death.



SameStars
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16 Mar 2019, 4:59 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
SameStars wrote:
I got very conflicted feelings... I did do some research and especially Wade Robson's story seems to be full of holes and lies. Like the final goal here is definitely monetary gain, which would totally be justifiably. So they had to spin it in the way that the documentary shows, so while I think a lot of it is embellishment; if even a fraction of it is true, it would be inexcusable.


Didn't Robson basically say the same things in Leaving Neverland that he did in the Oprah interview years earlier?

My guess it that since MeToo began, he feels that he is more likely to be believed.

No, he blatantly lied about several things. My guess is that yes; the MeToo was the right moment for his lies to sway the general public that does not care about research and that will believe a 4-hour "documentary" meant to play on emotions. It's also a good route if you already went to court with this case and it was thrown out, but is now in appeal. If any of the allegations are true, this documentary is a total disservice to the credibility of the two men.



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16 Mar 2019, 11:55 am

SameStars wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
SameStars wrote:
I got very conflicted feelings... I did do some research and especially Wade Robson's story seems to be full of holes and lies. Like the final goal here is definitely monetary gain, which would totally be justifiably. So they had to spin it in the way that the documentary shows, so while I think a lot of it is embellishment; if even a fraction of it is true, it would be inexcusable.


Didn't Robson basically say the same things in Leaving Neverland that he did in the Oprah interview years earlier?

My guess it that since MeToo began, he feels that he is more likely to be believed.

No, he blatantly lied about several things. My guess is that yes; the MeToo was the right moment for his lies to sway the general public that does not care about research and that will believe a 4-hour "documentary" meant to play on emotions. It's also a good route if you already went to court with this case and it was thrown out, but is now in appeal. If any of the allegations are true, this documentary is a total disservice to the credibility of the two men.


Why do you feel he lied?



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16 Mar 2019, 12:15 pm

League_Girl wrote:
I wonder if he did the mask thing so people wouldn't recognize them and it was to protect them so they would have private lives. I know other celebrities have kept their kids out of the media so no one would recognize them and I wonder how they avoided them being photographed and being put in gossip mags.


I think that's definitely true but I think a more emotionally mature parent would have used other methods.

Like I said about the molestation accusations, I think it's tricky because I think he was quite young himself mentally.

I mean if you want to not draw attention to somebody even I (as an aspie and not the best judge of human nature) know that putting them in masks all the time is a bad idea. Like something a little kid would come up with not an adult.



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16 Mar 2019, 3:49 pm

...For a while, I tended to think that MJ was innocent of major sex offense - I guess - though that's maybe not a great way of putting it.putting it.
I thought that maybe he did really have sleepovers and stuff on a " big kid " level, and maybe he got in a cheap feel or two. But. I'm more likely later on to think that he really did do it :cry: - " Go sell the way ", if you will, though perhaps that"s a bad choice of phrase. But, some people here argue that he didn't, and that the accusers were lying - or deluded, I suppose :( .
There have been arguments that MK was gay (or no) and. obviously, kept that out of view. especially considering the great dislike of other black gays among some blacks in America ( Although I don't know if that's all the much more than dislike of gays by other races :??


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16 Mar 2019, 4:45 pm

It's very simple to me, do a lie detector test - then I believe you. Talk, lie, read about how to look sad and shameful are something you can learn. The can act just like usual actors to gain what they want especially if the molester is dead.

Lie detector test now!


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Wolfram87
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16 Mar 2019, 5:05 pm

Lie detectors are hilariously unreliable.


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16 Mar 2019, 10:18 pm

...A tabloidy book I read some years ago claimed to have contacted some of-age men who said that they had had relationships/relations with MJ - but had $igned confidentially agreement$.


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Renal kidney failure, congestive heart failure, COPD. Can't really get up from a floor position unhelped anymore:-(.
One of the walking wounded ~ SMASHED DOWN by life and age, now prevented from even expressing myself! SOB.
" Oh, no! First you have to PROVE you deserve to go away to college! " ~ My mother, 1978 (the heyday of Andy Gibb and Player). I would still like to go.:-(
My life destroyed by Thorazine and Mellaril - and rape - and the Psychiatric/Industrial Complex. SOB:-(! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!


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17 Mar 2019, 8:31 am

BlueIris24 wrote:
SameStars wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
SameStars wrote:
I got very conflicted feelings... I did do some research and especially Wade Robson's story seems to be full of holes and lies. Like the final goal here is definitely monetary gain, which would totally be justifiably. So they had to spin it in the way that the documentary shows, so while I think a lot of it is embellishment; if even a fraction of it is true, it would be inexcusable.


Didn't Robson basically say the same things in Leaving Neverland that he did in the Oprah interview years earlier?

My guess it that since MeToo began, he feels that he is more likely to be believed.

No, he blatantly lied about several things. My guess is that yes; the MeToo was the right moment for his lies to sway the general public that does not care about research and that will believe a 4-hour "documentary" meant to play on emotions. It's also a good route if you already went to court with this case and it was thrown out, but is now in appeal. If any of the allegations are true, this documentary is a total disservice to the credibility of the two men.


Why do you feel he lied?
Facts. Despite actual lies, the documentary relied heavily on the lie of omission. While it tried to make you believe Michael Jackson tried to isolate those boys and did not want them to have relationships with girls, Michael Jackson actually introduced Wade Robson to his niece, and those two dated for 7 years from around age 11. They broke up because Robson cheated multiple times. I think that if you're trying to make a reliable documentary, then that is the kind of detail that deserves to be mentioned.



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17 Mar 2019, 8:40 am

Good arguments being made on both sides in this thread.

I dunno. Havent seen this new movie.

For me it just goes back to the same old dichotomy:

Either MJ was just innocently weird, and like to have innocent pajama parties with kids, and his bad judgment about the optics of doing that set himself up to look suspicious. Thus setting himself up for blackmail, and lawsuits.

Or...he really was guilty.

Its a sad story either way.

Lotsa smoke, but no fire. Or some fire underneath the smoke. Could be either way. Maybe we will never know.

Interesting sidebar though: Rosie ODonnell saw the movie, and said she got triggered about being sexually abused in her own family. So maybe something about the guys testimony was authentic enough to trigger her.



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17 Mar 2019, 9:56 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Good arguments being made on both sides in this thread.

I dunno. Havent seen this new movie.

For me it just goes back to the same old dichotomy:

Either MJ was just innocently weird, and like to have innocent pajama parties with kids, and his bad judgment about the optics of doing that set himself up to look suspicious. Thus setting himself up for blackmail, and lawsuits.

Or...he really was guilty.

Its a sad story either way.

Lotsa smoke, but no fire. Or some fire underneath the smoke. Could be either way. Maybe we will never know.

Interesting sidebar though: Rosie ODonnell saw the movie, and said she got triggered about being sexually abused in her own family. So maybe something about the guys testimony was authentic enough to trigger her.

If well-researched and well-acted, any story can become relatable. As a side note, some of Safechuck's story seems lifted from the fabricated book Michael Jackson was My Lover: The Secret Diary of Jordie Chandler. So for me, their stories are very shaky. Though despite all of it, there can still be a bit of truth to their stories, but the web of lies and monetary motives are definitely there.



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17 Mar 2019, 10:07 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
Lie detectors are hilariously unreliable.


No it's not


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