Trump's part in the New Zealand mass shooting

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EzraS
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16 Mar 2019, 1:14 am

cyberdad wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Timothy McVeigh said the government was responsible. Elliot Roger said women were responsible. David Berkowitz said his neighbor's dog was responsible. Adam Lanza said society was responsible (while others said autism was responsible) and so on.


The people you listed (you forgot Anders Brevik and Dylan Roof) were "blaming the government".

Brendon Tarrant (and probably James Alex Fields Jr.) were "inspired" by Trump which is quite the opposite


I didn't forget anyone, I just didn't feel like writing a lengthy list, which is why I said "and so on".

I didn't say "blame", I said responsible. John Hinckley Jr said the movie Taxi Driver was responsible or that he was inspired by it. James Holmes said comic book characters were responsible or that he was inspired by them to gun down a theater.

One way or another most say or indicate they were inspired or motivated to commit mass murder by some outside influence, whether that be a person, or certain people, or an organization or a movie, or god or the devil etc.

They are all completely insane.



Last edited by EzraS on 16 Mar 2019, 1:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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16 Mar 2019, 1:17 am

EzraS wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Timothy McVeigh said the government was responsible. Elliot Roger said women were responsible. David Berkowitz said his neighbor's dog was responsible. Adam Lanza said society was responsible (while others said autism was responsible) and so on.


The people you listed (you forgot Anders Brevik and Dylan Roof) were "blaming the government".

Brendon Tarrant (and probably James Alex Fields Jr.) were "inspired" by Trump which is quite the opposite


I didn't forget anyone, I just didn't feel like writing a lengthy list, which is why I said "and so on".

I didn't say "blame", I said responsible. John Hinckley Jr said the movie Taxi Driver was responsible or that he was inspired by it. James Holmes said comic book characters were responsible or that he was inspired by them to gun down a theater.

One way or another most say or indicate they were inspired or motivated to commit mass murder by some outside influence, whether that be a person, or certain people, or an organization or a movie, or god or the devil etc.

They are all completely insane.


So the Muslim terrorists that claim they did it for ISIS, they are completely insane and acted alone too, right?

You can't have it both ways and not look like a hypocrite.



cyberdad
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16 Mar 2019, 1:21 am

VegetableMan wrote:
my beef primarily lies with the assertion that Trump bears any responsibility for anyone else's actions, given that the culprits' attitudes were formed by a variety of influences that have nothing to do with the POTUS.

I'm not sure if you remember when Trump was on the apprentice, he understood he was playing the role of a mentor and role model for the contestants.

Even though he is woefully inadequately trained for the role of POTUS, he probably understands better than past presidents the importance of the position as a social role model. That just makes his behavior/conduct (or lack of conduct) worse....



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16 Mar 2019, 5:43 am

I skimmed through the manifesto. I have also read several claims that the attack was not totally because of his racism but purely or partially use hate to troll. The use of the phrase “shitpost” in the manifesto which means to use stuff most people will misunderstand as offensive to get a reaction and his claim to have used firearms to spark further gun control debate in America, leading to confiscation leading to civil war as evidence of trollish intent. Most of his manifesto is answering all sorts of questions normally asked after a mass attack.

edited to add link and quotes from link
The Shooter’s Manifesto Was Designed to Troll

Quote:
Early Friday, a number of unverified social-media posts surfaced, along with a bizarre manifesto posted to 8chan, rich with irony and references to memes.

Together, the posts suggest that every aspect of the shootings was designed to gain maximum attention online, in part by baiting the media. The shooter live-streamed the attack itself on Facebook, and the video was quickly shared across YouTube, Twitter, and Instagram. Before committing the act, he shouted, “Remember, lads, subscribe to PewDiePie,” a reference to Felix Kjellberg, who runs YouTube’s most subscribed-to channel. The phrase itself is a meme started by PewDiePie’s fans, and its goal is to be reprinted.

Kjellberg, who has previously found himself embroiled in controversy over alleged anti-Semitism, disavowed the shooting on Twitter Friday morning. “Just heard news of the devastating reports from New Zealand Christchurch. I feel absolutely sickened having my name uttered by this person“

Significant portions of the manifesto appear to be an elaborate troll, written to prey on the mainstream media’s worst tendencies. As the journalist Robert Evans noted, “This manifesto is a trap … laid for journalists searching for the meaning behind this horrific crime. There is truth in there, and valuable clues to the shooter’s radicalization, but it is buried beneath a great deal of, for lack of a better word, ‘’shitposting’

Shitposting is a slang term used to describe the act of posting trollish and usually ironic content designed to derail a conversation or elicit a strong reaction from people who aren’t in on the joke. Certain aspects of the shooter’s manifesto fall into this category. He includes Navy Seal Copypasta, a meme that originated on 4chan. He claims that Spyro: Year of the Dragon, a video game, taught him ethno-nationalism and that Fortnite taught him to “floss on the corpses,” referring to a viral dance move from the game. These absurd references are meant to troll readers

The shooter also credits the far-right personality Candace Owens with helping to “push me further and further into the belief of violence over meekness.” Though the shooter could be a genuine fan of Owens, who has been known to espouse right-leaning views on immigration and gun control, this reference might be meant to incite Owens’s critics to blame her.

That doesn’t mean the racism expressed throughout the 74-page manifesto isn’t genuine. But the complexities of the crime are still unfolding, and as the New York Times journalist Kevin Roose cautioned, “The NZ shooter’s apparent manifesto is thick with irony and meta-text and very easy to misinterpret.” Unfortunately, when journalists report on these horrific acts, the shooter’s hateful messages are sometimes amplified in the process. But the origins of that hate and the shooter’s public postings do need to be examined, even when taking them at face value is difficult.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 16 Mar 2019, 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Piobaire
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16 Mar 2019, 8:23 am

endersdragon34 wrote:
Crimadella wrote:
The left is really getting creative(sarcasm). If we get another hole in the ozone, I'm sure it will be because Trump farted.

Trump: "White supremacists are bad people, horrible people"

Just typical Trump calling for white supremacy in coded language only the insane portion of the left can decipher.

for the people who have missed this. There is an estimated 150,000 white supremacists in the US, there is an estimated 42,000,000 people who believe white people shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion on particular subjects(hint, they are part of the left). So which group do we really have to worry about causing racism to rise up? There are I think, about 7,000,000(2% of 350,000,000) people with schizophrenia, I don't think we have to worry about people with schizophrenia rising up, why should we feel we are in danger of 150k people rising up? How would you expect Trump to seek support from such a small fraction of society? Why would you believe such radical ideas? Which is spread by the 12%(42 million). Trump supporting them would do far more damage to his courier, if he supported white supremacy he would not have been voted in, there is not 175 million white supremacists in the US , the overwhelming majority of people in the US are strongly against white supremacy.


But Trump never said that, in fact he said some white supremacists are very fine people.


No he did not say that. He said some of the protesters were.


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16 Mar 2019, 8:26 am

cyberdad wrote:
Crimadella wrote:
[ Trump said, "there were fine people on both sides", the 2 sides he was referring to were the two sides who started fighting, Antifa and Trump supporters, not white supremacists. .

You are throwing in your own interpretation....Trump was alluding to the protestors and the tikki torch carriers

The reason he said some the Nazis were fine people is because many were drawn from Virginia Tech and the armed forces...


Try and read other posts. That media lie was corrected in the post above you.


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EzraS
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16 Mar 2019, 8:36 am

Piobaire wrote:


How does that one bit of graffiti, that's been re-posted umpteen times for over 2 years, demonstrate prevalence?



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16 Mar 2019, 8:49 am

Piobaire wrote:


Trump has proven over and over again that he deserves no benefit of the doubt.

A small number of people can do a lot of damage. I still think hardcore violent white nationalist belief is a fringe belief in America. They have been emboldened by Trump, the attention we are giving them, and each attack inspiring copycats.

Terrorists want to terrorize. They want us to believe they are more poweful then they are. They can only do so much by themselves, it is us who does the rest of the work for them. They want us to react in such way that seemingly proves thier point thus gaining their cause converts.


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EzraS
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16 Mar 2019, 8:55 am

I keep hearing that white nationalist neo-nazis have been emboldened by trump, but in what way are they bolder now than before?



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16 Mar 2019, 9:44 am

EzraS wrote:
I keep hearing that white nationalist neo-nazis have been emboldened by trump, but how so?

Some of them have said they feel emboldened by him.

One has to understand most people are not literal minded autistics. The idea is that Trump or any politician does not have to literally say white people are superior or all mexicans are criminals. They use language that signals to racists I am with you but since they did not literally say all mexicans are criminals it provides him and some supporters plausable deniability while still signaling to racists I am with you.

Lets take Charlottesville. I said it the day it happened and I still believe the organizers of the Unite the Right rally and the Antifa counter protesters came looking for the fight that day they got. Trump said there were some “fine people”. His plausible deniability is that it is true that there were some innocents there who thought they were there fighting facism or fighing for dead soilders or just wanted to peacefully protest. It is not very plausable when you consider the ralliers were yelling “Jews will not replace us”, “Blood and soil”, and marching with Tiki torches meant to invoke Klan cross burnings. While both sides were at fault one side was worse. It was not Antifa’s rally, they were the “heroic” counterprotesters that day. Antifa wants to violently suppress speech they do not like by beating up people and getting them fired. White nationalists want to kill and ethnically and racially cleanse.

Trump’s remarks tacitly endorsed this both sidesism. This was not a one off Trump has been doing this signaling consistantly. I do not have time to go through a laundry list of remarks that so many others have gone through.


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16 Mar 2019, 10:01 am

Jussie Smollet probably wrote that


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16 Mar 2019, 10:02 am

Trump is being "emboldened" everyday the left continues this constant bashing without offering any alternatives. The Democratic Party has nothing to return a party that offers a viable alternative to Trump and the Republicans. They are becoming even more pro-war than the Pubs.

Trump had no role in these attacks. Racism, white nationalism are the culprits. Trump may have inspired the actors, but he is not the director.


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16 Mar 2019, 10:05 am

I have now read the entire manifesto. Trump was not an inspiration to this man. It is but a tiny part of the manifesto, as follows:

Quote:
Were/are you a supporter of Donald Trump? As a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose? Sure. As a policy maker and leader? Dear god no.


In fact, I would advise against using these media outlets to learn about him at all. The manifesto covers a very wide range of topics, and it would be easy for media outlets to cherry pick bits and pieces to push an agenda. At best, even without agenda pushing, good luck trying to condense 74 pages into a one or two page article.



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16 Mar 2019, 10:47 am

EzraS wrote:
Piobaire wrote:


How does that one bit of graffiti, that's been re-posted umpteen times for over 2 years, demonstrate prevalence?


Funny thing is it is very possible a left wing activist tagged the wall with that crap to 'prove Trump is inspiring racism'(It's not as if left wing activists have not been caught doing just that)

Trump has never said anything to encourage white supremacists to act out in acts of violence. When you get into the 'secret code that only white supremacists can decode' you are stepping into insanity. If you give a speech and some idiot misunderstands your message, goes out and kills someone and claims you inspired them, are you to blame for their stupidity?

example: Say a lot of Trump haters here claim everyone who voted for Trump is a racist person. Someone reads this and believes this is true, goes out and kills a person with a MAGA hat on and claims they were inspired by WP members, they wanted to help the world by killing racist people, would WP members be to blame for this idiot going out and killing an innocent person??