Trump's part in the New Zealand mass shooting

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EzraS
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16 Mar 2019, 11:23 am

I think it was written by an anti-trump as an expression of sarcastic anger.



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16 Mar 2019, 12:06 pm

Not so fast: NYU students are apparently blaming Chelsea Clinton for the NZ attack over Omar's antisemitic comments.


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16 Mar 2019, 12:09 pm

EzraS wrote:
I think it was written by an anti-trump as an expression of sarcastic anger.


You are probably right. There is a bucket in the left coroner, wouldn't surprise me if that is the black paint used. The anti-Trump guy paints that crap on the wall, leaves the paint there, takes the photo then posts it, "look what these racist Trump voters did!"



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16 Mar 2019, 12:19 pm

The people who deal in this type of journalism couldn't care less about the victims of this horrific tragedy. They don't care! It's the same kind of virtue signaling that went on during the whole MAGA hat wearing teens story. If these journalists REALLY gave a s**t about native Americans, then why were they all so silent during the DAPL protests, when indigenous people were being blasted with water cannons in sub freezing temperatures?

No, the sole purpose of stories like these is to manipulate people, fire up hatred for the political opposition, and keep everyone divided.


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16 Mar 2019, 12:21 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
......and keep everyone divided.




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16 Mar 2019, 1:11 pm

Magna wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
......and keep everyone divided.





Anger is an energy!


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16 Mar 2019, 1:31 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Trump's role is in terms of emboldening people on the fence about taking action on their prejudice.

There's no doubt Trump's public comments about Obama being a Kenyan, Mexicans being rapists and Africans being undesirable Americans because they come from "shithole coutnries" (all his words) have given free publicity to the Alt-right movement in America and some semblance of respectability to racists.

Any wonder the gunman attributes his actions (at least in part) to Donald Trump. Trump has recently tried to play this down
https://www.apnews.com/a1fa7fd40d2a427fac6a04e0ba113f25

Statistics seem to support a rise in white violence
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... rimes-2017


Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Humans, by nature, are tribal and violent by nature. But one man is responsible for unleashing these forces? Come on! It's all good and fine to point out Trump's racism and nationalism; it's another altogether to pin the entire blame on him for every hate crime. Again, and I keep reiterating this same point time and time again, but Trump is a symptom, not the problem. These polemic political arguments do nothing but widen the divide.

I agree. I despise Trump, but I don't blame him or anyone else for that act of terror. Only the terrorist himself is responsible for his violent actions.


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karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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16 Mar 2019, 5:04 pm

Skilpadde wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Trump's role is in terms of emboldening people on the fence about taking action on their prejudice.

There's no doubt Trump's public comments about Obama being a Kenyan, Mexicans being rapists and Africans being undesirable Americans because they come from "shithole coutnries" (all his words) have given free publicity to the Alt-right movement in America and some semblance of respectability to racists.

Any wonder the gunman attributes his actions (at least in part) to Donald Trump. Trump has recently tried to play this down
https://www.apnews.com/a1fa7fd40d2a427fac6a04e0ba113f25

Statistics seem to support a rise in white violence
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... rimes-2017


Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Humans, by nature, are tribal and violent by nature. But one man is responsible for unleashing these forces? Come on! It's all good and fine to point out Trump's racism and nationalism; it's another altogether to pin the entire blame on him for every hate crime. Again, and I keep reiterating this same point time and time again, but Trump is a symptom, not the problem. These polemic political arguments do nothing but widen the divide.

I agree. I despise Trump, but I don't blame him or anyone else for that act of terror. Only the terrorist himself is responsible for his violent actions.


What about the people he talked to online who encouraged his "trolling" hatred and racism and violence? Those people share no responsibility at all for the fact that he acted out his violence based on the encouragement he received from the white supremacists online? That's pretty facile, to think there was no other influence but the shooter himself. When people get radicalized by ISIS online and commit terrorist acts in their name, does ISIS not share any responsibility for that person's violence? You can't have it both ways just because one guy is white he must have acted alone when every brown terrorist is obviously part of an extremist muslim group. This shooter in New Zealand is just as much a part of a hate group as the guys who rent trucks and run people over or go on a stabbing spree in Europe and say they did it in the name of the Islamic State. The shooter is a murderer, but the people online who encouraged their rage and violence share some responsibility in those murders for pushing that person towards the edge intentionally. Just because he's white you can't automatically say he acted alone, it's such a racist cop-out.

And don't forget, two other people were arrested with him and were suspected of being with him at the shootings also armed with guns and driving him from one target to another, and possibly helping him by placing some of the IEDs that were left behind on people's cars. So not only was he radicalized online but there were people willing to aid him in person by being there and physically helping him commit the attack. That is not a "lone wolf" crazy man, it's an organized terrorist group.



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16 Mar 2019, 6:10 pm

A lot of obfuscation going on here.

There is a difference between "cause and effect" and "embolden"

Trump did not cause racism (or discrimination for that matter) because in the western world it's always been bubbling beneath surface. In other words despite social justice movements and changes to the vile public policy relating to race in nearly every western nation (that existed up to the 1960s) the underlying cause and the prevalence of discrimination and prejudice (while acknowledging it's much better than the past) has still not been addressed. This is nothing new and minorities (insert race, sexual preference, disability etc) still experience both discrimination and prejudice. Trump is not responsible for all this....

Embolden means that people who carry this prejudice now feel/perceive that public opinion has swung back to the right. David Duke and Richard B Spencer (Alt-right leader) and the creators of the stormfront website have all expressed confidence in expressing their views on white supremacy and attribute their new found confidence to the election of Donald Trump.
Across the right wing in the US there has been widespread celebration of Donald Trump
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/12/poli ... index.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 935708002/

While apologists for the right wing (like those dwelling here on WP) will claim this movement is fringe and Trump isn't responsible, neither is actually correct.

Trump may not be the cause but his comments/manifesto make him responsible for the "emboldening" we see, The Charlottesville marchers came from a cross section of young men including college students (one was even a engineering PhD) and members of the armed forces. They admitted they felt more confident based on public support for Trump to go in public and proclaim/reclaim white supremacy (this isn't rocket science)

If you look at it from a psychological perspective Trump is using the platform of neo-liberal free speech (the foundation of democracy) to pitch "politically incorrect:" racist, misogynistic ideology which has the effect of normalising these views that already exist in middle America. In other words he was already reaching receptive ears (preaching to the converted).

What does normalisation mean? it means that despite Trump's sexist and racist dialogue on twitter middle America accept these new values as their values in open (whereas during the Obama administration they kept this hidden)
84% of Republicans supported Trump's shutdown to get funding through congress to build a wall to keep out Mexicans. That's unambiguous to me...

Any wonder they didn't care Trump chose an open racist in Stever Bannon to advise him or a known rapist in Brett Kavanaugh has been accepted under his administration

Despite his open views on women, the multiple allegations of sexual assault 54% of white American women and something like 64% of white republican women still supported him because a "strong man" in charge is perceived to able to do whatever they like (explains why sexual assault on university campuses and domestic violence remains a major problem in America) like grab a woman's p****

Emboldening simply means Trump has added legitimacy to making white rights something you can talk about in public without repercussion.



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16 Mar 2019, 6:17 pm

cyberdad wrote:
A lot of obfuscation going on here.

There is a difference between "cause and effect" and "embolden"

Trump did not cause racism (or discrimination for that matter) because in the western world it's always been bubbling beneath surface. In other words despite social justice movements and changes to the vile public policy relating to race in nearly every western nation (that existed up to the 1960s) the underlying cause and the prevalence of discrimination and prejudice (while acknowledging it's much better than the past) has still not been addressed. This is nothing new and minorities (insert race, sexual preference, disability etc) still experience both discrimination and prejudice. Trump is not responsible for all this....

Embolden means that people who carry this prejudice now feel/perceive that public opinion has swung back to the right. David Duke and Richard B Spencer (Alt-right leader) and the creators of the stormfront website have all expressed confidence in expressing their views on white supremacy and attribute their new found confidence to the election of Donald Trump.
Across the right wing in the US there has been widespread celebration of Donald Trump
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/12/poli ... index.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 935708002/

While apologists for the right wing (like those dwelling here on WP) will claim this movement is fringe and Trump isn't responsible, neither is actually correct.

Trump may not be the cause but his comments/manifesto make him responsible for the "emboldening" we see, The Charlottesville marchers came from a cross section of young men including college students (one was even a engineering PhD) and members of the armed forces. They admitted they felt more confident based on public support for Trump to go in public and proclaim/reclaim white supremacy (this isn't rocket science)

If you look at it from a psychological perspective Trump is using the platform of neo-liberal free speech (the foundation of democracy) to pitch "politically incorrect:" racist, misogynistic ideology which has the effect of normalising these views that already exist in middle America. In other words he was already reaching receptive ears (preaching to the converted).

What does normalisation mean? it means that despite Trump's sexist and racist dialogue on twitter middle America accept these new values as their values in open (whereas during the Obama administration they kept this hidden)
84% of Republicans supported Trump's shutdown to get funding through congress to build a wall to keep out Mexicans. That's unambiguous to me...

Any wonder they didn't care Trump chose an open racist in Stever Bannon to advise him or a known rapist in Brett Kavanaugh has been accepted under his administration

Despite his open views on women, the multiple allegations of sexual assault 54% of white AMericans women and something like 64% of white republican women still supported him because a "strong man" can do whatever they like (explains why sexual assault on university campuses and domestic violence remains a major problem in America)

Emboldening simply means Trump has added legitimacy to making white rights something you can talk about in public without repercussion.


When you speak about these things your words are loaded with left wing false accusations. To point one of them out, the wall is not to keep Mexicans out, it's to keep people from illegally crossing the border, Mexicans still have the ability to enter the country legally, so it's quite radicalized to suggest that border securities goal is to keep Mexicans out, no it's not, it's goal is to keep 'illegals' from sneaking across the border??



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16 Mar 2019, 6:30 pm

Crimadella wrote:
the wall is not to keep Mexicans out, it's to keep people from illegally crossing the border, Mexicans still have the ability to enter the country legally, so it's quite radicalized to suggest that border securities goal is to keep Mexicans out, no it's not, it's goal is to keep 'illegals' from sneaking across the border??


Trump's wall is a mirror image of Brexit. As with Brexit the majority supported it initially and the reasons stem from underlying fear of illegal immigrants. When the economic burden for both was going to get dumped on the taxpayer it's popularity waned.

Trump used carefully chosen language to describe illegals as "rapists and criminals" to justify the wall. In doing os he deliberately tarnished all Mexicans as being of dubious character (unashamedly racist). It was a major election manifesto fro Trump/Bannon and had a resounding positive effect on his voter base.

For the average American the distinction between legal and illegal when it comes to Mexicans isn't really that deep....



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16 Mar 2019, 6:49 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Crimadella wrote:
the wall is not to keep Mexicans out, it's to keep people from illegally crossing the border, Mexicans still have the ability to enter the country legally, so it's quite radicalized to suggest that border securities goal is to keep Mexicans out, no it's not, it's goal is to keep 'illegals' from sneaking across the border??


Trump's wall is a mirror image of Brexit. As with Brexit the majority supported it initially and the reasons stem from underlying fear of illegal immigrants. When the economic burden for both was going to get dumped on the taxpayer it's popularity waned.

Trump used carefully chosen language to describe illegals as "rapists and criminals" to justify the wall. In doing os he deliberately tarnished all Mexicans as being of dubious character (unashamedly racist). It was a major election manifesto fro Trump/Bannon and had a resounding positive effect on his voter base.

For the average American the distinction between legal and illegal when it comes to Mexicans isn't really that deep....

That is also incorrect. Most people understand the difference between an illegal immigrant and a legal immigrants, it's not rocket science, it's a pretty simple matter and it's obviously not a good idea to allow people to enter a country without anyone knowing about it. Trump was making the point that rapists, murders and drug traffickers can easily cross the border and do. It's obvious that isn't a good thing. MS 13 gangs contain a lot of illegals. People are seriously acting like criminals do not exist and like criminals will respect our borders and not cross them. Even Mexicans that have watched his speeches agree with him, now if he said 'all' Mexicans are bad people, it would be pretty obvious that a Mexican would attend that speech then not support Trump. It's as if facts are no longer valid and to insist bad people can sneak across a border is somehow racists. I have a very hard time grasping how someone could think such odd thoughts. If we don't try to prevent people from illegally crossing, we can't monitor the people coming in. We have a huge problem with drugs being brought in by Mexican cartels, it's not racist to address that issue and it's not racist to prevent people from breaking our laws by sneaking across the border.

Anyway, this is spiraling off topic and it's obviously a pointless conversation. The answer should be obvious yet for some unknown reason it doesn't seem to be with some people.



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16 Mar 2019, 7:07 pm

Indeed, the obliviousness of Trump supporters is astounding. What people are willing to overlook to keep standing up for Trump, no matter what he does or says or what evil he openly supports, is astounding. Anything to "own the libz" I guess, whatever that is supposed to mean. I keep hearing it from the right and it gets more and more childish and inane the more times I hear it.



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16 Mar 2019, 7:31 pm

I grew up around a lot of the racists assholes we're talking about, unfortunately. Trump didn't suddenly come along and turn these idiots into violent white nationalists. These people are the product of bad parents who passed their racist attitudes along to their kids. It continues generation after generation. It's the same way with domestic violence.


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16 Mar 2019, 7:38 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
I grew up around a lot of the racists assholes we're talking about, unfortunately. Trump didn't suddenly come along and turn these idiots into violent white nationalists. These people are the product of bad parents who passed their racist attitudes along to their kids. It continues generation after generation. It's the same way with domestic violence.


No, he didn't create it--he just uses it, and wants those people supporting him and voting for him. He exploits the fear and hatred of ignorant people because those kinds of people are easy to manipulate to gain power, which is what a narcissist does. Just yesterday he was talking about how the police and military and the bikers all love him and would be violent for his sake. This is the support he wants, that he cultivates, from a certain hateful population. He doesn't pull the trigger himself, but he has some personal culpability in the violence he inspires.



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16 Mar 2019, 7:57 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
I grew up around a lot of the racists assholes we're talking about, unfortunately. Trump didn't suddenly come along and turn these idiots into violent white nationalists. These people are the product of bad parents who passed their racist attitudes along to their kids. It continues generation after generation. It's the same way with domestic violence.


No, he didn't create it--he just uses it, and wants those people supporting him and voting for him. He exploits the fear and hatred of ignorant people because those kinds of people are easy to manipulate to gain power, which is what a narcissist does. Just yesterday he was talking about how the police and military and the bikers all love him and would be violent for his sake. This is the support he wants, that he cultivates, from a certain hateful population. He doesn't pull the trigger himself, but he has some personal culpability in the violence he inspires.


Let's also extend blame to the Democrats, shall we? They are largely responsible for putting Trump in the White House for reasons I've already expressed many times. Let's be fair, here. We have to acknowledge all the factors involved in elevating a white nationalist to a position of power.

But I don't really believe that, of course, just making a point.


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