Trump wants to deport people here for medical reasons.

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cyberdad
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11 Sep 2019, 4:55 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:

We have both choices and limits. Conservatives concentrate on the choices part and forget about the limits part.

The whole American philosophy of individualism, personal responsibility and self-reliance over simplifies what is complex and is only part of the greater picture of things.


Quite brilliant! this is very insightful



EzraS
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11 Sep 2019, 4:55 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
What should his dad or mom have done then? What could he or his mom have done to both foresee this a million miles away as you claim? How exactly should both of his parents take personal responsibility in this case?

Victims of any kind, in retrospect, should of tried to NOT BE VICTIMS.

False promise victims:
1. Stop naively believing in promises.
2. Do your best to put yourself in a self-reliant position.
3. Prepare for the worst.
4. If something really matters to you, then you should PROTECT it.

That's hardship of "individualism".

It means you take personal responsibility.

You don't play "the victim".

You saw this coming a mile away, and were prepared for it.


Ok, let me make sure I'm getting this straight.

If I'm defrauded then are you saying that it is my fault? I caused myself to be defrauded. I didn't check out the product enough? I didn't save enough? I didn't have the foresight to plan ahead well.

If someone steals from me it is my fault that person stole from me? I somehow caused myself to be stolen from?

If a woman is raped it is her fault that she was raped? She didn't take better precautions? She didn't prepare as well as she should have?

Is this what I'm to understand and accept as true?


I would say in all those cases the less careful or irresponsible someone is, the more likely they are to be victimized.

Whereas people who have the attitude of taking responsibility for themselves and being self reliant and vigilant and so on are less likely to be victimized. And less likely to need help. Especially when it comes to daily life.


One can take all the precautions one wants. There is still the unexpected and the thing one never thought of or out of context problem. The problem with personal responsibility is that it assumes that one's choices always leads to one's outcomes and circumstances. And, that one knows all of what one choices are. No one is omniscient. No one has absolute awareness of all like a god. Our control is limited. It is not absolute as our society pretends it is. And, it presumes that choices are made in a vacuum. They're not. Others control what choices one has and what choices one thinks one has. So does genetics. Others make the rules, laws, set the standards, guard the doors and have the keys. So, if life is what one makes it it is also true that life is what others make it as well. Let's not forget the physical laws of our universe as well.

We have both choices and limits. Conservatives concentrate on the choices part and forget about the limits part.

The whole American philosophy of individualism, personal responsibility and self-reliance over simplifies what is complex and is only part of the greater picture of things.


I do not think that is an American philosophy. When someone starts out in life they are completely dependant. The need to be fed, bathed, dressed etc.

But the idea is that their parents/parent/ guardian et al is supposed to potty train them, to be able to relieve themselves by themselves instead of needing to have their diapers changed their whole lives.

Likewise they are taught to feed themselves, insted of someone putting food in their mouth for them, to bathe themselves, to dress themselves. To eventually get to school by themselves. Do their own homework. To look after themselves.

So life starts out with people being taught skills of self reliance and independence. And when they achieve all that, then they become parents and continue the cycle.

That is been how humankind has operated all over the world for thousands of years.

Now you can come up with a slew of what about this and what about that. What if the child is mentally and or physically incapable and so on. But in general and overall most of us were taught self reliance, individualism, personal responsibility, prudence, caution etc from the beginning.



EzraS
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11 Sep 2019, 5:04 am

cyberdad wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:

We have both choices and limits. Conservatives concentrate on the choices part and forget about the limits part.

The whole American philosophy of individualism, personal responsibility and self-reliance over simplifies what is complex and is only part of the greater picture of things.


Quite brilliant! this is very insightful


But overall do you think one does better and has better chances in life with those qualities or without those qualities?

Have you not raised your daughter to look after herself and look out for herself to the best of her ability?



cyberdad
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11 Sep 2019, 5:08 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Henry Ford one could argue was a selfish business man and I think he was an anti-semite as well but the man still made to where his own employees could afford his products. They were paid a good amount of a wage so they would buy and reinvest their salary into his company. The man thought in a long term way. He was not altruistic in his business decisions but cared about his bottom line which was why he wanted his own employees to succeed and be prosperous. If they were prosperous then he was prosperous.


I think this in some ways is the one of the only virtues of a free market. Yes I am cognisant of how the business cycle requires prosperity and so the bottom line of nearly all big companies is linked to the spending power of the working class (unless of course your business portfolio is luxury cars, caviar and french wine).

However I will apply your very own words and caution there are limits to the "greed is good" ethos of big capital. I think supporters of conservative government practice "moral relativity" where they relieve their dissonance by rationalising the benefits of free market and pretend that screwing workers rights is a natural consequence of demand/supply in the labor market. I don't actually think Trump supporters believe in their hearts that he is really going to save them.



cyberdad
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11 Sep 2019, 5:11 am

EzraS wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:

We have both choices and limits. Conservatives concentrate on the choices part and forget about the limits part.

The whole American philosophy of individualism, personal responsibility and self-reliance over simplifies what is complex and is only part of the greater picture of things.


Quite brilliant! this is very insightful


But overall do you think one does better and has better chances in life with those qualities or without those qualities?

Have you not raised your daughter to look after herself and look out for herself to the best of her ability?


I rationalise that you have to find a middle ground Ezra. In my view democrat/labor based governments work for the majority of the population whereas republican/conservative governments advocate for a minority. But of course even a left wing government policies are subject to the free market, I am not that naive.



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11 Sep 2019, 7:34 am

In reading the last few posts, I'm just stunned that anyone feels they can depend on anyone for anything. Maybe life has suggested to you that you can depend on others, life has not suggested that to me, at all. I'm definitely an autist, but I believe my upbringing compounded my isolation/self-reliance issues.

I don't believe anyone, except God and maybe my husband (even that can be circumstantial) will be there for me.

What I foresee is that nothing, even the most basic of human needs will be provided. When I plan for the future, I plan that no needs will be met by anyone but me. So, I do foresee every contingency, in that I see I need to meet every need.

If I don't have a place to live, I will be homeless.
If don't possess insurance and I get sick, I will die.
If I don't have money, I won't eat.

It really is very simple, for me at least. Maybe some will say, "I pity you. That's so sad." But, how is it really sad if it's all I've known? It could be sad if I'd known another way, I guess. Maybe if Voc Rehab comes through, I'll feel differently. I've applied, but I'm not holding my breath.


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11 Sep 2019, 7:56 am

I am willing to accept government assistance, but I certainly do not feel that it is owed to me or that I am entitled to it.

And if America is so neglectful of its needy, why am I being provided for? Or am I supposed to complain that I am not getting enough?



kraftiekortie
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11 Sep 2019, 8:11 am

People who have “invisible” disabilities frequently have difficulty obtaining benefits.



EzraS
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11 Sep 2019, 8:22 am

I personally can not think of an invisible disability that would keep me from providing for myself. Even with glaringly visible disabilities if there is anyway whatsoever I can provide for myself, I will. But that's me.



kraftiekortie
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11 Sep 2019, 8:37 am

I believe you have some people who play the "disabled" card because they are lazy. I've met some.

But you also have people with disabilities which are not evident at first glance----but which are "disabling," nevertheless. Like somebody, for example with cerebral palsy who only is lacking in "fine motor skills." I've met some of these sorts of persons as well.

Or somebody might have sensory issues which interfere with employment. One might have difficulty being a cashier, say, because of some subtle neurological manifestations which causes them not to be able to "do two things at once."

I believe a "case-by-case" basis is useful when assessing people's actual need for benefits.



EzraS
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11 Sep 2019, 10:57 am

Well then I guess try something that does not require fine motor skills or multitasking.
I am probably not as objective as I would like to be regarding this.
I do not like any of the benefits that come with being disabled.
I do not like the idea of me myself receiving disability income.
I do not like using my disability parking card.
Some people love to take advantage of something like that. They have a family member that has one and they use it when that person is not with them. But I am not gung-ho about what others do or get with a "those lazy good for nothing moochers" attitude. I have an opinion obviously, but in the long run I do not really care much.



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11 Sep 2019, 4:05 pm

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I'm a Lutheran, so trust me, I
have no illusions about how flawed human nature is. But I also know we're redeemed so we can be better.
Conservatives who saw such things as what happened at Kaiser Aluminum a mile away did nothing to stop it.


It seems like you tend to paint this picture of conservatives having all the wealth and power and liberals being downtrodden plebeians under their heel.

There are way too many CEOs and tycoons who are not conservative republicans for that to be true.


I never said that. I just criticize heartless conservative business types.


Those seem to be the only kind whom exist in your mind.


No, wait, my bad. I also criticize redneck and blue collar conservatives who vote for red button issues that appeals purely to their prejudices and fears over their own economic issues, as well as right wing religious conservatives who use theology to usher in their conservative secular agenda.


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11 Sep 2019, 4:14 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I'm a Lutheran, so trust me, I
have no illusions about how flawed human nature is. But I also know we're redeemed so we can be better.
Conservatives who saw such things as what happened at Kaiser Aluminum a mile away did nothing to stop it.


It seems like you tend to paint this picture of conservatives having all the wealth and power and liberals being downtrodden plebeians under their heel.

There are way too many CEOs and tycoons who are not conservative republicans for that to be true.


Just think of all the money George Soros wastes on pitting certain administrations against each other. He causes havoc all over the globe. He does not necessarily feel bad for the poor, but the poor en masse can be an effective battering ram.

How many poor could he have helped? Instead, he chooses chaos. And the Liberals are okay with it because if it works, they'll be in power forever.


You conservatives have bought into your own propaganda regarding Soros being some sort of global bogeyman, and yet you'll defend that shirtless Bond villain in the Kremlin who is actually a world wide threat.



Putin? I don't defend Putin. And I was simply pointing out that one of your own doesn't seem all that keen on sharing his wealth with the American worker. He does seem to share it in situations that can generate chaos, such as the Southern border.


The notion that Soros is responsible for what the right perceives as evil around the globe, such as poor, desperate people south of the border trying to escape violence and crime forming into caravans to reach America, is entirely fictitious. He's been turned into a bogeyman by the right in order to horrify their rank-and-file. There is zero evidence that Soros is the Jewish Fu Manchu, pulling the strings behind the scenes in a vast global conspiracy.


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11 Sep 2019, 4:35 pm

cyberdad wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:

We have both choices and limits. Conservatives concentrate on the choices part and forget about the limits part.

The whole American philosophy of individualism, personal responsibility and self-reliance over simplifies what is complex and is only part of the greater picture of things.


Quite brilliant! this is very insightful


Conservatives may have a blind spot when it comes to personal limits, but liberals have a blind spot when it comes to societal limits.

According to the proposals of some, we can simultaneously replace our entire energy infrastructure, provide free healthcare to all, provide free college to all, take in all the refugees from countries under duress, and pay everyone in the country a higher wage.


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11 Sep 2019, 4:44 pm

There are many people here who are "disabled" in some fashion-----but who have, or had, worked.

I don't believe many disabled people are seeking a free ride. I feel like many do want to pursue their profession.

It's a heck of a lot better to work than to have to go down to the Welfare Office or whatever---and be dehumanized by the workers there.