Trump wants to deport people here for medical reasons.

Page 5 of 46 [ 683 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 46  Next

kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 62,562
Location: Queens, NYC

01 Sep 2019, 8:29 pm

What Vermont said is what I meant.

We are known for treating people from poor countries who have rare and serious diseases.



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,127
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

02 Sep 2019, 1:16 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
blazingstar wrote:
"It is shameful that we allow people in our own country to live in poverty and on the streets"

Are you directing your post to me?[

Yes, you indicated it's a shame people have the freedom to ruin their lives.


Someone who has a run of bad luck, or suffers from mental illness, can hardly be blamed for making bad choices.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


EzraS
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,643
Location: Twin Peaks

02 Sep 2019, 5:01 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
beneficii wrote:
EzraS wrote:
beneficii wrote:
EzraS wrote:
America seems plenty happy to take in immigrants from China, Japan and India. But they tend to enter via the legal process (Ellis Island style) and come here to start careers and become business owners.

If everyone in America was doing well that would be one thing. But there is already a lot of poverty. A lot of homeless. A lot of junkies. And all that is getting worse at this point in time. And it seems like those whos hearts are gushing blood over people from other countries, do not seem to weep much over the hardships of America's own citizens. Not politically advantageous enough I suppose.


Really? Have you been paying attention?


Don't be rude.


You started it.

You've heard of Medicare For All, right? You've heard of college loan forgiveness, right? Those are intended to help America's own citizens. Problems with our health care system and mounting student loan debt for many people have impacted many Americans and have hurt our economy.

So I don't want you to see you claim again that we "do not seem to weep much over the hardship of America's own citizens". That is a completely disingenuous statement, and rude as heck, and you know it.


When you said "Really? Have you been paying attention?" is sounded like a snarky accusation that I was not paying attention to this thread.
I have also heard of and seen growing numbers of Americans in distress.
The weeping and wailing over people from other countries is much louder. The cries of what they need is much louder. And it is mostly political grandstanding.


The number of people coming to America for medical attention is a tiny percentage compared to Americans in medical need.
So, have you changed your opinion on universal medical coverage as you've expressed concern about Americans not getting the care they need? Do you now feel that all Americans should be able to get medical help as in every other industrial country?


I am not talking about just this specific issue when it comes to the overall loud attention paid to those from other countries over American citizens. I have always been in favor of a healthcare system like Canada has. I am just not in favor of the obamacare system because of its high premiums and gargantuan deductibles for so many working class.



EzraS
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,643
Location: Twin Peaks

02 Sep 2019, 5:15 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
blazingstar wrote:
"It is shameful that we allow people in our own country to live in poverty and on the streets"

Are you directing your post to me?[

Yes, you indicated it's a shame people have the freedom to ruin their lives.


Someone who has a run of bad luck, or suffers from mental illness, can hardly be blamed for making bad choices.


I do not understand why you and others keep bringing up people to whom statements like the one above do not apply to as a counter argument. Of course people being mentally ill or running into bad luck are not choices. Unless it is to perpetuate a myth that only a liberal/democrat can tell the difference.



beneficii
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,844

02 Sep 2019, 5:23 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
beneficii wrote:
EzraS wrote:
beneficii wrote:
EzraS wrote:
America seems plenty happy to take in immigrants from China, Japan and India. But they tend to enter via the legal process (Ellis Island style) and come here to start careers and become business owners.

If everyone in America was doing well that would be one thing. But there is already a lot of poverty. A lot of homeless. A lot of junkies. And all that is getting worse at this point in time. And it seems like those whos hearts are gushing blood over people from other countries, do not seem to weep much over the hardships of America's own citizens. Not politically advantageous enough I suppose.


Really? Have you been paying attention?


Don't be rude.


You started it.

You've heard of Medicare For All, right? You've heard of college loan forgiveness, right? Those are intended to help America's own citizens. Problems with our health care system and mounting student loan debt for many people have impacted many Americans and have hurt our economy.

So I don't want you to see you claim again that we "do not seem to weep much over the hardship of America's own citizens". That is a completely disingenuous statement, and rude as heck, and you know it.


When you said "Really? Have you been paying attention?" is sounded like a snarky accusation that I was not paying attention to this thread.
I have also heard of and seen growing numbers of Americans in distress.
The weeping and wailing over people from other countries is much louder. The cries of what they need is much louder. And it is mostly political grandstanding.


The number of people coming to America for medical attention is a tiny percentage compared to Americans in medical need.
So, have you changed your opinion on universal medical coverage as you've expressed concern about Americans not getting the care they need? Do you now feel that all Americans should be able to get medical help as in every other industrial country?


I am not talking about just this specific issue when it comes to the overall loud attention paid to those from other countries over American citizens. I have always been in favor of a healthcare system like Canada has. I am just not in favor of the obamacare system because of its high premiums and gargantuan deductibles for so many working class.


Oh? I'm glad to see we agree on this issue. :D


_________________
I stand with our American citizens living abroad. We need to move to residence-based taxation.


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,131

02 Sep 2019, 5:33 am

Peace in our lifetime :lol:



blazingstar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Nov 2017
Age: 65
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,435

02 Sep 2019, 2:28 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
blazingstar wrote:
That is not what I said. Please do not twist my meaning. I am not going to argue with you about what I meant.

Otoh, if you want to have a discussion with me, then by all means go ahead. :heart: :heart:

I see things from a freedom perspective.

Your accusation that "it's shameful" is an anti-freedom perspective, as it means something should have been done to STOP these people from ending up as derelicts. However, to STOP them, then you have to implement anti-freedom measures.

Like, ban these people from using drugs, or implement rent control (so they can afford an apartment) , require employers pay them a "living wage", or a hundred other anti-freedom measures.

I say you should be proud you live in a country that lets these people have the freedoms to become derelicts.


So, I have been thinking about your statements and I have a few questions that may clarify things, if you don't mind.

1. Do we have a choice about where we are born, ie, which country, town, rural, slums, detention camps, etc?

2. Do we have a choice about who are parents are, ie what genetic makeup we are born with?

3. If your mother were dying, hypothetically, and had no insurance, would you let her live with you? Would you help pay her medical bills? Would you look for other sources of help, such as donations?

4. Same question as above, but your mother could live if someone paid her medical expenses?

5. Save question as above, but what if it was your child, your sibling, your cousin.

6. If I haven't reach the limit of your willingness to sacrifice for the benefit of family, how far out would you go? Would you donate a kidney to someone who is not a relative, but you are an exact match for this stranger who will die without a donated kidney? Would you want to help a neighbor? A friend? Someone of your same race, religion, ethnicity?

I understand that you are not willing for theoretical reasons to spend money on the poor or uninsured.

I think we all have ideas about how far out our definitions of family or "who we would help" is and it is worth consideration of what yours (now editorially) might be. I know what Fnord's are because he has posted it in the past. Fnord has a committed system of ethics by which he lives his life and I respect him for that.

What are yours, lovenothate?

There is more to talk about but this is a good start. If you don't feel comfortable answering these questions, that's okay. We can move on to the theoretical. Just let me know. Please. I do appreciate your responses.


_________________
Eyes that watch the morning star
usually shine brighter,
Arms held out to dark they say,
usually hold tighter.


Threnody, Dorothy Parker
as modified by David Tamulovich


blazingstar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Nov 2017
Age: 65
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,435

02 Sep 2019, 2:37 pm

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
blazingstar wrote:
"It is shameful that we allow people in our own country to live in poverty and on the streets"

Are you directing your post to me?[

Yes, you indicated it's a shame people have the freedom to ruin their lives.


Someone who has a run of bad luck, or suffers from mental illness, can hardly be blamed for making bad choices.


I do not understand why you and others keep bringing up people to whom statements like the one above do not apply to as a counter argument. Of course people being mentally ill or running into bad luck are not choices. Unless it is to perpetuate a myth that only a liberal/democrat can tell the difference.


Actually, Ezra, when someone takes, as a political decision, that people who are poor and/or sick have the freedom to do so (ie, due to drug addiction, poor medical care, diet); that is something one can take exception to.

It is important that the USA clarify what we want to do as a country. These decisions are already being made, but they are being made piecemeal which turns everything into a muddle.

If we are going to make decisions as to who can afford health care, or live in a safe community, or whatever, then there needs to be an underlying rationale. This is what I think this particular discussion is addressing.

So, if someone makes a post like lovenothate did to me, it is appropriate for someone to make counter-examples.

The counter examples are troubling to people, but I am not sure why. Perhaps you could explain it to me.


_________________
Eyes that watch the morning star
usually shine brighter,
Arms held out to dark they say,
usually hold tighter.


Threnody, Dorothy Parker
as modified by David Tamulovich


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,127
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

02 Sep 2019, 3:33 pm

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
blazingstar wrote:
"It is shameful that we allow people in our own country to live in poverty and on the streets"

Are you directing your post to me?[

Yes, you indicated it's a shame people have the freedom to ruin their lives.


Someone who has a run of bad luck, or suffers from mental illness, can hardly be blamed for making bad choices.


I do not understand why you and others keep bringing up people to whom statements like the one above do not apply to as a counter argument. Of course people being mentally ill or running into bad luck are not choices. Unless it is to perpetuate a myth that only a liberal/democrat can tell the difference.


Because those are the causes of most poverty and homelessness. Few, if any, make a conscious choice to live on the street without enough food or medical care.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,127
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

02 Sep 2019, 3:37 pm

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
beneficii wrote:
EzraS wrote:
beneficii wrote:
EzraS wrote:
America seems plenty happy to take in immigrants from China, Japan and India. But they tend to enter via the legal process (Ellis Island style) and come here to start careers and become business owners.

If everyone in America was doing well that would be one thing. But there is already a lot of poverty. A lot of homeless. A lot of junkies. And all that is getting worse at this point in time. And it seems like those whos hearts are gushing blood over people from other countries, do not seem to weep much over the hardships of America's own citizens. Not politically advantageous enough I suppose.


Really? Have you been paying attention?


Don't be rude.


You started it.

You've heard of Medicare For All, right? You've heard of college loan forgiveness, right? Those are intended to help America's own citizens. Problems with our health care system and mounting student loan debt for many people have impacted many Americans and have hurt our economy.

So I don't want you to see you claim again that we "do not seem to weep much over the hardship of America's own citizens". That is a completely disingenuous statement, and rude as heck, and you know it.


When you said "Really? Have you been paying attention?" is sounded like a snarky accusation that I was not paying attention to this thread.
I have also heard of and seen growing numbers of Americans in distress.
The weeping and wailing over people from other countries is much louder. The cries of what they need is much louder. And it is mostly political grandstanding.


The number of people coming to America for medical attention is a tiny percentage compared to Americans in medical need.
So, have you changed your opinion on universal medical coverage as you've expressed concern about Americans not getting the care they need? Do you now feel that all Americans should be able to get medical help as in every other industrial country?


I am not talking about just this specific issue when it comes to the overall loud attention paid to those from other countries over American citizens. I have always been in favor of a healthcare system like Canada has. I am just not in favor of the obamacare system because of its high premiums and gargantuan deductibles for so many working class.


We should be able to care for all Americans. It's just that many on the right would rather see those who they consider to be undeserving get nothing. I have no problem with what Canada has, either.
Just because we help people from abroad who need medical help doesn't mean Americans have to get less medical coverage.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


EzraS
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,643
Location: Twin Peaks

03 Sep 2019, 2:02 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
blazingstar wrote:
"It is shameful that we allow people in our own country to live in poverty and on the streets"

Are you directing your post to me?[

Yes, you indicated it's a shame people have the freedom to ruin their lives.


Someone who has a run of bad luck, or suffers from mental illness, can hardly be blamed for making bad choices.


I do not understand why you and others keep bringing up people to whom statements like the one above do not apply to as a counter argument. Of course people being mentally ill or running into bad luck are not choices. Unless it is to perpetuate a myth that only a liberal/democrat can tell the difference.


Because those are the causes of most poverty and homelessness. Few, if any, make a conscious choice to live on the street without enough food or medical care.


I see plenty of street people who most likey chose to be part of the street drug culture. They are always hanging out in front of the convenience store I shop at. Usually in packs. They have their own society going. There is even a live cam youtube channel of where they congregate called Tweakerville. They are all over Seattle too as seen in another video called Seattle Is Dying. This street culture is all over the country.

Homeless people get plenty of free medical care. There is a homeless WP member who checks into the ER on a regular basis, along with hospital stays and he obviously does not get changed for it.

They do not starve because they get EBT and whatever. They are usually at that 7-Eleven to get $5 pizzas and such. They have it down to a fine science.



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,127
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

03 Sep 2019, 3:00 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
blazingstar wrote:
"It is shameful that we allow people in our own country to live in poverty and on the streets"

Are you directing your post to me?[

Yes, you indicated it's a shame people have the freedom to ruin their lives.


Someone who has a run of bad luck, or suffers from mental illness, can hardly be blamed for making bad choices.


I do not understand why you and others keep bringing up people to whom statements like the one above do not apply to as a counter argument. Of course people being mentally ill or running into bad luck are not choices. Unless it is to perpetuate a myth that only a liberal/democrat can tell the difference.


Because those are the causes of most poverty and homelessness. Few, if any, make a conscious choice to live on the street without enough food or medical care.


I see plenty of street people who most likey chose to be part of the street drug culture. They are always hanging out in front of the convenience store I shop at. Usually in packs. They have their own society going. There is even a live cam youtube channel of where they congregate called Tweakerville. They are all over Seattle too as seen in another video called Seattle Is Dying. This street culture is all over the country.

Homeless people get plenty of free medical care. There is a homeless WP member who checks into the ER on a regular basis, along with hospital stays and he obviously does not get changed for it.

They do not starve because they get EBT and whatever. They are usually at that 7-Eleven to get $5 pizzas and such. They have it down to a fine science.


How do you know they're so overjoyed with all that?


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,131

03 Sep 2019, 3:16 am

EzraS wrote:
I see plenty of street people who most likey chose to be part of the street drug culture.

Oh dear Ezra....please don't perpetuate stereotypes that are just not true
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/homeless ... y_b_669861



EzraS
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,643
Location: Twin Peaks

03 Sep 2019, 3:41 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
How do you know they're so overjoyed with all that?


Most people are probably not overjoyed with their daily grind.



EzraS
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,643
Location: Twin Peaks

03 Sep 2019, 4:05 am

cyberdad wrote:
EzraS wrote:
I see plenty of street people who most likey chose to be part of the street drug culture.

Oh dear Ezra....please don't perpetuate stereotypes that are just not true
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/homeless ... y_b_669861


A Huffington Post article does not establish what the truth is. One thing the author does not adress is why Jerry is homeless. The ones I see the most are on the street because of substance abuse. They can not both hold a job and get high.

Now Jerry says that he chooses to be homeless. So the author points at a guy with a better lifestyle and says, "do you really choose your lifestyle over his?". But that can be done with most people. That's why lotteries exist. Because there is a better lifestyle to be had than most people have. I think in this case choosing can get confused with wishing. A lot of people wish their circumstances were better, but they don't really do anything proactive to make it so.