Sweden the only country with Correct Approach to CVD-19

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magz
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28 May 2020, 5:21 am

cyberdad wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
There are, however, other examples around the world where governments put hard rules in place And people abused by them and thus the net results are low death tolls.


Before you go on any further the countries you were about to praise (e.g. Germany, South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan) experienced a resurgence/spoke in deaths when they removed/lessened the lockdowns in their country.

South Korean "spikes" are of the order of 40 new infections a day in a country of 50 million.
I wish we had such "spikes" here.


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goldfish21
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29 May 2020, 1:33 am

cyberdad wrote:
My argument is you need a balanced approach that prevents needless jobs losses and delays in our children's education (so its not just financial)

So far the biggest transmission vectors have been cruise ships, aeroplanes and public transport.....governments could have been more creative in stopping these vectors.

In the US Trump was more worried about building a wall to stop Mexicans yet he dawdled aimlessly for months when he should have put a wall against Chinese entering the US.


The idea is to prevent needless deaths. Human life > some cog in a corporate machine. And you can’t educate dead children. Delays in education > dead or damaged kids.

In hindsight, every country could have done even better at mitigating hotspots for transmission in their country. That’s the nature of hindsight.

Really? Trump blocking more Chinese from entering the USA would have prevented their coronavirus cases that mostly came from the European mutation? :roll:


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cyberdad
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29 May 2020, 11:39 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
[And you can’t educate dead children. Delays in education > dead or damaged kids.

In hindsight, every country could have done even better at mitigating hotspots for transmission in their country. That’s the nature of hindsight.

Really? Trump blocking more Chinese from entering the USA would have prevented their coronavirus cases that mostly came from the European mutation? :roll:


Lockdown means those fleeing Europe (and those feeling via China) should have been put in forcible self-isolation. Individuals who did not comply simply waltzed into shops/restaurants/train subways infecting hundreds. This is a failure of many governments but Trump is one of the worst (I am surprised you of all people are defending him).

On the matter of kids the death rate for children is negligible. They are in more danger from the winter flu than from COVID-19



goldfish21
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30 May 2020, 11:22 pm

I wasn’t defending trump, just calling out how stupid anti Chinese sentiment is when the virus mostly entered the USA via Europeans, not Chinese. I don’t like the anti Chinese racial hate crimes going on here in Canada and the USA over this. It’s totally fine not to like the Chinese governments’ handling of coronavirus, but it’s completely unacceptable to lash out against Asian Canadians or Asian Americans with insults or violence.

Kids can still suffer permanent organ damage or be killed. And even though the death rate is lower for children, they can still spread it to people it’s more likely to kill. We should still try to prevent children from getting it vs let it just run rampant like colds and things tend to amongst kids.


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31 May 2020, 12:07 am

goldfish21 wrote:
I wasn’t defending trump, just calling out how stupid anti Chinese sentiment is when the virus mostly entered the USA via Europeans, not Chinese. I don’t like the anti Chinese racial hate crimes going on here in Canada and the USA over this. It’s totally fine not to like the Chinese governments’ handling of coronavirus, but it’s completely unacceptable to lash out against Asian Canadians or Asian Americans with insults or violence.


I really don't know how harassing Koreans or Hong Kong diaspora, or Japanese or Filipinos has to do with anger towards the PRC government, but it's not like horrible people actually believe their own excuses.


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cyberdad
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31 May 2020, 4:17 am

We all know the communist regime's attempt to hide COVID-19 and their attempts to intimidate countries that are actually trying to conduct legitimate investigation to find the source of the virus.

What is perhaps less known is that millions of Chinese citizens from OECD countries who went back to China for Chinese new year celebrations knowing there was a risk of infection and then tried en masse to slip back into the US and Australia and other OECD countries carrying the virus. I know the majority of those infected earliest were from China and then of course second was the tourists on cruise ships/aeroplanes.



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04 Jul 2020, 12:26 am

Well I am finally vindicated

Sunetra Gupta, professor of theoretical epidemiology in the Department of Zoology at the University of Oxford, told The Australian newspaper that Australia should copy Sweden’s herd immunity strategy because our “selfish” lockdown approach is not working.

She said if we let the virus — which 80 to 90 per cent of the population will only get asymptomatically — spread naturally, with strong protections for those most vulnerable, it would protect all Australians from future viral threats and save our economy.

“There is no way lockdown can eliminate the virus … and so it’s not at all surprising once you lift lockdown in areas it will flare up again,” she said.

“That is what we are seeing in the southern United States, and in Australia. In places where it has already swept through, a proportion of people are immune and you are not seeing it come back.’’
By comparison, she said Sweden’s social-distancing approach has resulted in greater protections for the entire region because Scandinavia now had high levels of immunity.

I was beginning to think the world has gone mad??



goldfish21
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04 Jul 2020, 12:41 am

I still don’t think almost anyone else is going to agree that this is the best option. Or they’d be doing it instead of trying to avoid getting the virus while treatments/vaccines are developed.


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cyberdad
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04 Jul 2020, 12:52 am

goldfish21 wrote:
I still don’t think almost anyone else is going to agree that this is the best option. Or they’d be doing it instead of trying to avoid getting the virus while treatments/vaccines are developed.



goldfish21
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04 Jul 2020, 1:16 am

We know there’s no guarantee. But that doesn’t mean we should just give up hope and say f**k it and get sick w/ a chance of dying or having lifelong health issues with multiple organs. Most people are still going to agree that it’s way better to avoid getting it at all.


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kraftiekortie
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04 Jul 2020, 1:19 am

COVID is not chickenpox.



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04 Jul 2020, 6:18 am

Sweden's prime minister orders an inquiry into the failure of the country's no-lockdown coronavirus strategy

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Sweden's prime minister has ordered an inquiry into the country's decision not to impose a coronavirus lockdown after the country suffered thousands more deaths than its closest neighbours.

"We have thousands of dead," Swedish prime minister Stefan Lofven said at a press conference on Wednesday, while admitting that the country's handling had exposed Sweden's "shortcomings," The Times of London reported.

"Now the question is how Sweden should change, not if."

Unlike most other European countries, including its closest neighbours, Sweden did not implement strict, wholesale lockdown measures in response to the pandemic. Instead, the country has largely allowed businesses and hospitality to remain open and students to attend school.

In May, Sweden's state epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, justified this response by saying that countries that imposed strict lockdowns would likely suffer large second waves later in the year, whereas Sweden's would be smaller.

"In the autumn there will be a second wave," Tegnell told the Financial Times. "Sweden will have a high level of immunity and the number of cases will probably be quite low."

However, the strategy appears to have failed, with recent data suggesting the virus has spread faster in Sweden since Tegnell's remarks two months ago, while failing to stimulate sufficient antibodies in the community to prevent a second wave.

A study published in May suggested that a small number of people in Stockholm, 7.3%, had developed coronavirus antibodies, casting doubt over whether Sweden could achieve herd immunity in the near future.

Sweden's capital Stockholm has also failed to avert the same sort of economic downturn seen in other parts of Europe.

The country has in the last week recorded daily new cases of well over 1,000, up from fewer than 500 in mid-May.

5,370 people in Sweden had died after testing positive for the COVID-19 virus as of Thursday morning, putting it among the worst-affected countries in the world in terms of deaths per capita. Meanwhile, its Scandinavian neighbours have recorded much fewer deaths. Denmark has the second-highest death toll in the region with just 606 fatalities as of this morning.

As well as opting against a strict lockdown, Sweden has taken a more relaxed approach to testing than most other countries, focusing mainly on healthcare workers and people who are hospitalized and not the wider population.

The inquiry announced by Lofven will first consider why approximately half of Sweden's deaths have taken place in its care homes, The Times of London reported.

"We did not manage to protect the most vulnerable, the elderly, despite our best intentions," the prime minister said.

The Swedish government has previously said it is not aiming only for herd immunity, in which 60% of a population catches the virus, but that it could slow the spread of the virus enough to ensure that the capacity of its health service is not breached.


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goldfish21
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04 Jul 2020, 9:53 am

^see, cyberdad, I told ya a better metric was people not dying.


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PhosphorusDecree
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04 Jul 2020, 10:49 am

I'm more interested in what a) South Korea and b) Greece did. South Korea because they contained the disease well despite been a very densely populated country and having very little warning; Greece because they achieved a very low death toll despite an under-funded health service and an extremely high number of people crossing the borders. Both countries are far closer to returning to normal than the UK or USA.

Both acted very promptly, which the UK and USA definitely did not. Which is a useful lesson, but only for next time. South Korea didn't actually have much of a "lockdown," beyond closing schools and other high-risk areas. Instead, they had an aggressive program of testing and contact-tracing in the general population, which was already up to 20,000 tests a day in early March- exactly the time when the UK government decided not to bother testing except in hospital intensive care units. The track-and trace program is working, full stop. They have now carried out around 1.25 million tests. Latest statistics I could find: 12,800 cases, 282 deaths.

Greece, meanwhile, took the disease seriously because they knew their healthcare infrastructure couldn't cope with a major outbreak. They closed down public events in February, long before their first death. They then closed down schools and restaurants, and started full lockdown on March 23. This is the same day as the UK, but here, schools were open and major public events still on right up until that date. By that point, there had been 15 deaths in Greece but more than 300 in the UK. 3486 cases, 192 deaths in Greece so far.

For comparison,
UK: 284276 cases, 44131 deaths.
657.7 deaths per one million population.
Sweden: 71419 cases, 5420 deaths
523.71 deaths per one million population.
USA: 2,903,991cases, 132,145 deaths
388.93 deaths per one million population.
Greece: 3486 cases, 192 deaths.
17.9 deaths per one million population.
South Korea: 12,800 cases, 282 deaths.
5.46 deaths per one million population.

Yes, the death toll in the UK is more than one hundred times as bad as in South Korea. Sweden is not much better.

(edited for clarity)


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cyberdad
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04 Jul 2020, 8:47 pm

I am only vindicated in that I have an Oxford professor who agrees that Sweden's approach seems to have the best long term outcome, For countries that don't have herd immunity each time they ease restrictions they kill people and go back to lockdown. This is slowly strangling their economy.

All this lockdown pivots on a vaccine or effective treatment neither of which is yet on the horizon.



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04 Jul 2020, 9:35 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
COVID is not chickenpox.


It's not the black death either.
The steps we take to fight a disease, must not be more harmful than the disease itself.