Sweden the only country with Correct Approach to CVD-19

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fluffysaurus
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06 May 2020, 12:13 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
We have private insurance coverages here in Canada, too. I have Blue Cross extended benefits through my Union.

:lol:In case you get worms or flees.

Sorry, Blue Cross over here is for pets.



Karamazov
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06 May 2020, 12:21 pm

fluffysaurus wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
We have private insurance coverages here in Canada, too. I have Blue Cross extended benefits through my Union.

:lol:In case you get worms or flees.

Sorry, Blue Cross over here is for pets.

Indeed: one place above Cats Protection on the charity shop league table :P



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06 May 2020, 1:27 pm

Actually, it seems more probable that corporate America will take on the healthcare industry and give them the boot, starting with these 3 Billionaires who know they can reduce costs & improve access to healthcare for their employees if they team up together:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/06/business ... index.html

Whatever they come up with could spread and become the basis for state or nationwide healthcare coverage.

fluffysaurus wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
We have private insurance coverages here in Canada, too. I have Blue Cross extended benefits through my Union.

:lol:In case you get worms or flees.

Sorry, Blue Cross over here is for pets.


Not in Canada or the USA. They’re one of the major providers of extended benefits plans for dental/prescriptions/vision etc - I even have coverage for 12 massages/year that I’ve never used but may begin to after utilizing auto insurance coverage for massages and realizing how beneficial it is for loosening things up after certain types of work - I’d guess they’re in the top 3. Hell, I can’t even name another one right now off the top of my head. They’re definitely one of the most common & widely known and used for sure.


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07 May 2020, 4:44 am

Sweden is sacrificing a vulnerable minority (elderly in caretake homes) for the benefit of the majority. As long as that majority has enough vacation days and cinnamon buns, it is happy.


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cyberdad
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07 May 2020, 5:06 am

goldfish21 wrote:
You’ve made it clear that you’d sacrifice people so you can go to work and you think that’s just fine. Most of the rest of the world disagrees with you and that’s why we’re doing our part to minimize the number of people who die from this.


Why are you making this about me?

It's not rocket science goldfish....people who are at risk will have to practice the same level of lockdown so actually makes no difference to them. Some simple solutions in Sweden would be more stringent rules about nursing home staff testing, special hours for the elderly and immunosuppressed to enter supermarkets etc...

Older people and the immunosuppressed already avoid crowds anyway so no difference there really.



goldfish21
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07 May 2020, 12:21 pm

cyberdad wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
You’ve made it clear that you’d sacrifice people so you can go to work and you think that’s just fine. Most of the rest of the world disagrees with you and that’s why we’re doing our part to minimize the number of people who die from this.


Why are you making this about me?

It's not rocket science goldfish....people who are at risk will have to practice the same level of lockdown so actually makes no difference to them. Some simple solutions in Sweden would be more stringent rules about nursing home staff testing, special hours for the elderly and immunosuppressed to enter supermarkets etc...

Older people and the immunosuppressed already avoid crowds anyway so no difference there really.


You are the one who started this thread with the opinion subject line stating that you think Sweden is the only country who has the correct approach. Meanwhile, in reality they have one of the top 10 death tolls.

And this disease does not only harm and kill the very old and immunocompromised. Healthy fit active strong immune system young people have also died from this or have permanent damage from it, too.

Promoting an approach that spreads it everywhere on purpose is beyond stupid & sounds like it’s rooted in selfish self interest of being able to go about making your money and socializing as you see fit, viral pandemic be damned because f**k old people and sick people, right?


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fluffysaurus
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07 May 2020, 2:31 pm

^I don't see any need to make this personal. Cyberdad has an opinion, there's no need to make out like he's trying to wipe out all the old people on purpose.

We won't know who's right till it's over but I'm glad we (UK) changed course to ease pressure on the NHS and I hope herd immunity works for Sweden.



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07 May 2020, 2:58 pm

I’m allowed to express my strong disagreement with someone else’ opinion when I think their opinion is terrible.


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cyberdad
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07 May 2020, 7:13 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
You are the one who started this thread with the opinion subject line stating that you think Sweden is the only country who has the correct approach. Meanwhile, in reality they have one of the top 10 death tolls.


I think the approach (and yes this is my opinion) is correct but even the Swedish government admit they did some things wrong so there was room for improvement.

I think an ideal approach is somewhere in the middle with more done to protect the vulnerable in nursing homes (here in Australia we have one of the most draconian lockdown laws in the world but even here nursing homes have been hit by infection).



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07 May 2020, 7:20 pm

Sweden sees higher coronavirus death rate than US after refusing lockdown

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Sweden has reported a higher death rate than the US after controversially refusing lockdown measures to ward off the coronavirus pandemic, according to the latest figures.

The Scandinavian country, which has reported 3,040 virus-related fatalities, has seen a death rate of 297.16 for every 1 million citizens, according to data from John Hopkins University.

The US, meanwhile, has confirmed 74,239 deaths — a rate of 226.33 deaths per 1 million people, the data shows.

The result has been a higher rate of coronavirus fatalities relative to the size of the population than in neighboring countries — including Denmark, Norway and Finland, which enacted stricter measures to prevent the spread of the virus.

But Sweden still trails behind hard-hit European countries such as the United Kingdom, France and Spain, which all implemented lockdowns.


Sweden's Coronavirus Death Toll 'Horrifying' Says Scientist Behind Country's Anti-Lockdown Strategy
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ases of the novel coronavirus in Sweden have reached at least 23,918, with its death count at 2,941, as of Thursday, according to the latest figures from the country's health ministry.

"We are starting to near 3,000 deceased, a horrifyingly large number," noted the chief epidemiologist at Sweden's public health agency, Anders Tegnell, at a press conference on Wednesday.

Tegnell, who has been leading the country's COVID-19 response and previously defended the nation's decision not to impose a lockdown, this week admitted he was "not convinced" the unconventional anti-lockdown strategy was the best option to take.

"I'm not convinced at all - we are constantly thinking about this," Tegnell told Aftonbladet, the Swedish newspaper based in the capital Stockholm.

A child less than 10 years old, who had been in intensive care, was reported to be among the latest fatalities. But it has yet to be confirmed whether the child died from the SARS-CoV-2 virus.

Tegnell told Aftonbladet the virus posed a minimal risk to children. He reportedly claimed there are nearly no cases among children globally, claiming that those who died following infection had severe underlying health conditions.

Contrary to Tegnell's claim, while there are fewer confirmed cases among under-18s, there have been several cases among children, including in Sweden. At least 118 confirmed infections among those aged 9 or younger and at least 282 confirmed cases among those aged between 10 and 19 have been reported in Sweden, as of Thursday.

Last month, a number of children in the United Kingdom with no underlying conditions were reported to have died from a rare inflammatory syndrome which researchers believe was linked to the disease, Reuters reported.

The daily death toll for Sweden is projected to reach potentially as high as nearly 150 by May 11, while up to 1,060 deaths have been projected for this week, according to the latest projection model by the Imperial College COVID-19 Response Team. The team consists of Imperial College London, the WHO (World Health Organization) Collaborating Centre for Infectious Disease Modelling within the MRC Centre for Global Infectious Disease Analysis and J-IDEA (Abdul Latif Jameel Institute for Disease and Emergency Analytics).

et Sweden is the only infected European country to not issue a strict lockdown, a strategy which aimed to develop "herd immunity" by increasing the number of people exposed to the virus in a bid to avoid a second wave of cases.

But the move has come under criticism by other countries as well as within the nation.

Speaking to Newsweek, a 33-year-old mother based in the city of Lund in southern Sweden, Allyson Plumberg, said: "I don't think the Swedish response has been adequate. No recommendations for face mask usage in elder care homes (where the bulk of deaths have occurred)," in an email interview.

She added: "Even children with pre-existing medical conditions are not officially considered at-risk for COVID19. It is now well-known that children can become very ill (and even die in rare circumstances) from COVID-19, even without pre-existing conditions. There is still a mandatory school attendance (ages 6-15) for healthy children in Sweden.

"This means healthy teachers are also pressured to continue showing up in the classroom. We now see that teachers have died, and households with in-risk members are more desperate than ever to protect the health of their families.

"Overall, it seems like Sweden avoids adherence to the precautionary principle whenever possible," she said.

Last month the government warned it would be shutting down any restaurants and bars that do not follow precautionary guidelines issued to prevent an outbreak of cases, Reuters reported.

Sweden's Minister for Home Affairs, Mikael Damberg, said: "As the sun begins to shine, we are beginning to see some worrying reports of open-air restaurants full of customers, of places packed with people, and we have to take this seriously," at a press conference.

"I don't want to see any full open-air restaurants in Stockholm or anywhere else. Otherwise, businesses will be closed," he added.

Cecilia Soderberg-Naucler, a professor of microbial pathogenesis at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, has also previously raised concerns over Sweden's radical strategy. She is among the nearly 2,300 academics who in March signed an open letter to the government urging implement stronger measures to protect the country's health care system from being overwhelmed.

"We must establish control over the situation, we cannot head into a situation where we get complete chaos. No one has tried this route [of not imposing a lockdown], so why should we test it first in Sweden, without informed consent?" she told Reuters last month.

A professor of genetic epidemiology at Sweden's Lund University, Paul Franks, told Newsweek last month: "A feature of the strategy that has not worked so well is protecting vulnerable populations, which is evident in the fact that SARS-CoV-2 has been detected in many care homes and hospital wards," he noted.


cyberdad wrote:
people who are at risk will have to practice the same level of lockdown so actually makes no difference to them.
Older people and the immunosuppressed already avoid crowds anyway so no difference there really.

A person in Sweden whom completely self-quarantines, whom never leaves their home still has a higher risk of infection because that person is still having stuff delivered by people more likely to be infected.


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cyberdad
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07 May 2020, 7:27 pm

I think what Sweden needed (and the horse has bolted on this one) is a hybrid model which allocated money to protection of immunosuppressed and the elderly which would have protected those who died.



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08 May 2020, 7:39 am

Why is it too late to protect vulnerable populations?

Why couldn't those people be allowed to be separate from the rest of the population?
They could be provided with food and other supplies that are pre-treated to prevent surface transmission.
And then transported by people who, as best they can determine, aren't carriers of the virus.
Then, when they get the stuff, they can treat the stuff again just to be sure. Mistakes happen.

I know a caregiver who is isolated and living with the people she cares for.
No need for her to go out and be exposed to carriers of the virus.



Last edited by BTDT on 08 May 2020, 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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08 May 2020, 9:30 am

Let's not forget that we still don't know what long lasting effects this virus can have on people even if they survive. It's possible that it'll damage some people for a lifetime, causing those people to need more medical attention etc. That too should be taken in to account.



cyberdad
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09 May 2020, 12:29 am

Fireblossom wrote:
Let's not forget that we still don't know what long lasting effects this virus can have on people even if they survive. It's possible that it'll damage some people for a lifetime, causing those people to need more medical attention etc. That too should be taken in to account.


Vaccines?



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09 May 2020, 2:30 am

cyberdad wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
Let's not forget that we still don't know what long lasting effects this virus can have on people even if they survive. It's possible that it'll damage some people for a lifetime, causing those people to need more medical attention etc. That too should be taken in to account.


Vaccines?


What do vaccines have to do with it? If someone gets infected, the possible damage has already been done. Or if you're saying that vaccines might cause long term harm too then you're right, but they tend to be carefully tested and developed, so the chances are lower.



magz
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09 May 2020, 2:51 am

Fireblossom wrote:
What do vaccines have to do with it? If someone gets infected, the possible damage has already been done. Or if you're saying that vaccines might cause long term harm too then you're right, but they tend to be carefully tested and developed, so the chances are lower.

If there is time to carefully test and develop them...
That's about potential COVID19 vaccine. Even if it really gets released in 18 months or similarily soon, it will likely be administered only to the high risk group, as a result of risk-benefit weighting.
Anyway, a vaccine available only to the high risk group and medical workers would still be a game changer when it comes to "flattening the curve" and, ultimately, saving lives.


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