Jogger shot in Georgia for being Black

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cyberdad
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11 May 2020, 7:06 pm

I look at these from a different perspective.

I blame the gun lobby who abuse the amendment for the right to carry weapons to promote this idea citizens who carry loaded weapons have the right to intervene when they believe a crime is being committed. The police tell US citizens to not carry loaded weapons and act like vigilantes when the police are employed for this purpose.

In both cases the cops could have been called. There was no need to intervene as nobody was at risk.



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11 May 2020, 9:45 pm

As I said to a long-lost high school friend that I recently found again on Fac(k)ebook (after almost 45 years):

“Nice to know that Jim Crow is still alive and well in this country. Considering our nation’s past, it will never die! :evil: :evil: :evil:

I shocked the living daylights out of him with that statement. (Considering how liberal and sarcastic he can be). I’m surprised he didn’t block and unfriendly me!


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Persephone29
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11 May 2020, 9:53 pm

The only time I believe shooting someone is justified, is if someone is breaking in my home with my family inside it. I don't carry a gun, my guns are in my home locked up. The only time I believe hitting someone is justified, is if they are attacking me, or I see them attacking someone else and I believe that violence may stop them from hurting the person further.

Otherwise, I don't care. If someone is dumb enough to leave their valuables in a car, they are just asking to have their car broken into. I think it's dumb to patrol the streets. If I hear my neighbor scream, I will call the police and attempt to get them help.

There wasn't anything wrong with that kid looking at a home being built. It's fun to do that and dream about what it would be like to have a home of your own built.

These men will go down and that dad is really going to get it once he gets into prison. He'll be either outright killed, if he doesn't get put on death row. Or, he'll wind up some black man's b***h. I signed the petition to get justice for Ambery.
What they did was wrong and hopefully their consequences will serve as a warning to any others. We in the South are NOT okay with this.


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sly279
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12 May 2020, 12:36 am

cyberdad wrote:
I look at these from a different perspective.

I blame the gun lobby who abuse the amendment for the right to carry weapons to promote this idea citizens who carry loaded weapons have the right to intervene when they believe a crime is being committed. The police tell US citizens to not carry loaded weapons and act like vigilantes when the police are employed for this purpose.

In both cases the cops could have been called. There was no need to intervene as nobody was at risk.

Most police want citizens to Cary guns and would prefer they intervene especially if a cops life is at risk.

Trust me police would be happy if say someone shot these two guys before they killed the other guy, I’m sure his family would have been too.

So what you seem to be saying is if I see somone about to be killed or raped I should just keep walking and call the police later?



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12 May 2020, 12:44 am

Persephone29 wrote:
The only time I believe shooting someone is justified, is if someone is breaking in my home with my family inside it. I don't carry a gun, my guns are in my home locked up. The only time I believe hitting someone is justified, is if they are attacking me, or I see them attacking someone else and I believe that violence may stop them from hurting the person further.

Otherwise, I don't care. If someone is dumb enough to leave their valuables in a car, they are just asking to have their car broken into. I think it's dumb to patrol the streets. If I hear my neighbor scream, I will call the police and attempt to get them help.

There wasn't anything wrong with that kid looking at a home being built. It's fun to do that and dream about what it would be like to have a home of your own built.

These men will go down and that dad is really going to get it once he gets into prison. He'll be either outright killed, if he doesn't get put on death row. Or, he'll wind up some black man's b***h. I signed the petition to get justice for Ambery.
What they did was wrong and hopefully their consequences will serve as a warning to any others. We in the South are NOT okay with this.


Worse the dad will get is accomplice but even that will be hard to get. Didn’t they call the police right away? Can they prove the dad knew the son was going shoot and kill the guy?
Son might just get manslaughter, as it’ll be hard to prove intent which murder needs. MansLaughter is killing when not intending to. Son wanted to arrest and hold guy. Manslaughter still has lots of jail time.

Some want the guy who filmed it charged too and I don’t get that. Lots of people film stuff like these instead of doing anything, that’s only way we every see what happen and without the film it seems likely no charges would have happen.
Would you stop and try to stop two guys with guns or would you film it why calling 911?
Evidence is how our justice systems works. Would people prefer their ewww no evidence?

I dont know what I’d done. Luckily I seldom ly leave my house thus limiting me becoming or being involved in such situations. Sadly I’ll likely be alone forever cause of it



cyberdad
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12 May 2020, 1:14 am

sly279 wrote:
So what you seem to be saying is if I see somone about to be killed or raped I should just keep walking and call the police later?


No I am saying Zimmerman and McHale should have listened to the dispatch they were in communication with and left their victims alone,



Persephone29
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12 May 2020, 9:19 am

sly279 wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
The only time I believe shooting someone is justified, is if someone is breaking in my home with my family inside it. I don't carry a gun, my guns are in my home locked up. The only time I believe hitting someone is justified, is if they are attacking me, or I see them attacking someone else and I believe that violence may stop them from hurting the person further.

Otherwise, I don't care. If someone is dumb enough to leave their valuables in a car, they are just asking to have their car broken into. I think it's dumb to patrol the streets. If I hear my neighbor scream, I will call the police and attempt to get them help.

There wasn't anything wrong with that kid looking at a home being built. It's fun to do that and dream about what it would be like to have a home of your own built.

These men will go down and that dad is really going to get it once he gets into prison. He'll be either outright killed, if he doesn't get put on death row. Or, he'll wind up some black man's b***h. I signed the petition to get justice for Ambery.
What they did was wrong and hopefully their consequences will serve as a warning to any others. We in the South are NOT okay with this.


Worse the dad will get is accomplice but even that will be hard to get. Didn’t they call the police right away? Can they prove the dad knew the son was going shoot and kill the guy?
Son might just get manslaughter, as it’ll be hard to prove intent which murder needs. MansLaughter is killing when not intending to. Son wanted to arrest and hold guy. Manslaughter still has lots of jail time.

Some want the guy who filmed it charged too and I don’t get that. Lots of people film stuff like these instead of doing anything, that’s only way we every see what happen and without the film it seems likely no charges would have happen.
Would you stop and try to stop two guys with guns or would you film it why calling 911?
Evidence is how our justice systems works. Would people prefer their ewww no evidence?

I dont know what I’d done. Luckily I seldom ly leave my house thus limiting me becoming or being involved in such situations. Sadly I’ll likely be alone forever cause of it



What I'm saying is that what was done, the way it was handled, doesn't seem logical. I am for justice. But it was broad daylight, and I just don't know very many people who go jogging in a neighborhood (predominantly white) looking for trouble. It makes no sense to try and convince anyone that a black man alone, jogging in a neighborhood in broad daylight was thinking it would be a good idea to cause trouble. We don't get to confront people for what we think they were thinking about doing at a later date. They had no right to try and stop the man, in the video it looked to me as if he were attempting to avoid confrontation with them. But, they forced him into a confrontation and then didn't like the way he handled it. If someone was in my line of exit with a shotgun, it's reasonable to assume that he may use it. Or else, why have it? If you just want to talk, why the gun? Their lives were not in danger, his life was in danger.
I grew up in a gun culture. I own guns. My family are all gun nuts. I recognize Southern glee at the prospect of killing something. I don't possess it, but I have been around enough people who do to recognize it when I see it. I've seen hunts, they drive the animal until it's exhausted and then kill it. The only difference I see in this video and some of the hunting shows I've watched on TV, is that it was a man and not an animal. And the person driving him to exhaustion was in a car, instead of using dogs and riding a horse or 4 wheeler. They hunted that man and then they killed him. I can't prove it, but I suspect they were hoping to kill him all along.
The guy was doing more than filming the confrontation (which was bad enough), he was tracking and pacing the guy.


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TheRobotLives
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12 May 2020, 9:55 am

The group was practicing a "citizen's arrest".

Mr. Arbery was witnessed entering the property (trespassing).

In Georgia ... "A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion."
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/12/us/citiz ... index.html


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Persephone29
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12 May 2020, 11:15 am

But he wasn't arrested, he's was killed. I don't know Georgia law, but does it say that if the person refuses to be detained you get to kill him, for trespassing? I mean if he hurt someone, I could maybe see an emotional angle. But, he didn't. He walked in and out of an empty home under construction.

I'm sorry. I'm a conservative, Southern, gun rights, Trump supporter. But, I just can't rationalize this.


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12 May 2020, 11:37 am

Persephone29 wrote:
But he wasn't arrested, he's was killed. I don't know Georgia law, but does it say that if the person refuses to be detained you get to kill him, for trespassing? I mean if he hurt someone, I could maybe see an emotional angle. But, he didn't. He walked in and out of an empty home under construction.

I'm sorry. I'm a conservative, Southern, gun rights, Trump supporter. But, I just can't rationalize this.

Well, we don't know the story.

What we know is ...
Mr. Aubrey and the son were struggling over the shotgun.
Mr. Aubrey was throwing head punches at the son (while struggling over the shotgun).
Mr. McMichael and son claim "self defense" that when making their citizen's arrest, they claim Mr. Aubrey attacked them.

The county prosector said there is no grounds for even an arrest.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/202 ... ing-death/

The county prosecutor says the video shows it's Mr. Aubrey who initiated the fight by grabbing the shotgun.

This supposedly placed Mr. McMichael (the son) in a life or death struggle.


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12 May 2020, 6:06 pm

Prosecutor Report ...
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... ng-Jp.html

"The video made by Willam Bryan clearly shows the shooting in real time.

From said video it appears Ahmaud Arberty was running along the right side of McMichael truck then abruptly turns 90 degrees to the left and attacks Travis McMichael who was standing at the left corner of the truck.

A brief skirmish ensues in which it appear Arberty strikes McMichael and appears to grab the shotgun and pull it from McMichael.

The 1st shot is through Arbery's right hand palm which is consistent with him grabbing and pulling the shotgun barrel tip. the 2nd and 3rd wounds are consistent with the stuggle for the shotgun as depicted in the video" ...

..."under Georgia law Mr. Michael was justified to use deadly force to protect himself".


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cyberdad
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12 May 2020, 7:23 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
The county prosecutor says the video shows it's Mr. Aubrey who initiated the fight by grabbing the shotgun. .


The irony is Aubrey may have thought he had to defend himself.



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13 May 2020, 9:44 am

cyberdad wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
The county prosecutor says the video shows it's Mr. Aubrey who initiated the fight by grabbing the shotgun. .


The irony is Aubrey may have thought he had to defend himself.

I would be scared if two unknown people with guns were yelling at me, and pulled ahead of me in their truck.


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13 May 2020, 9:50 am

The new prosecutor isn't sure a crime happened, so he is taking all this to a grand jury.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 174327002/

"A grand jury will decide whether criminal charges are warranted"

So the police appear to have improperly arrested them before anyone determined a crime happened.


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14 May 2020, 6:31 am

Personally I wouldn't count on justice ever being served in Jimcrowistan.
I wouldn't condemn a vigilante response to these sorts of killings. They'd become less common if the Klan-types understood they absolutely would carry consequences every single time and that their good ol' boy network would be impotent to protect them. brrt brrt skrrt

The fact that they're able to hide behind legal protections to get away with murder is part of the problem so whether or not it meets the legal standard isn't of concern to me. I'll celebrate the day Zimmerman gets caught too.


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cyberdad
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14 May 2020, 7:00 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
The fact that they're able to hide behind legal protections to get away with murder is part of the problem so whether or not it meets the legal standard isn't of concern to me. I'll celebrate the day Zimmerman gets caught too.


Another recurring theme in these dramas where African Americans get shot or arrested for basically conducting their daily lives is where they "trespass" into predominantly white neighbourhoods. In the Zimmerman case the elephant in the room was that Trayvon Martin's presence in a "white space" was probably the biggest trigger in Zimmerman stalking the teen.

These separate neighborhoods/schools/workplaces are relict from jim crow days and I suspect a big factor in black people getting arrested for doing things like jogging, eating sandwiches at train stations, selling lemonade on the side-walk, getting blocked from entering their own premises or getting stopped when driving through a "leafy" suburb..,