Monuments to racism toppling around the world.

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funeralxempire
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18 Jun 2020, 1:24 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
Image


No one's attempting to deny history though. We're just opposed to celebrating history's greatest monsters.


You seem to forget that man is very visual. You also assume that everyone reads? Half the little shits in the classroom don't even listen to their teachers. So, if they can't see it and they don't read it and they haven't heard it, what might prompt them to ask for more information? Nothing... so they will forget. If forgetting is your game, so be it.

But you're making a dangerous assumption by thinking everyone learns, remembers as you do.


You're making a foolish assumption to assume that celebrating them is the correct way to remember these monsters.



Wolfram87
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18 Jun 2020, 2:06 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
So how's that Lenin statue looking?

Not sure what point you’re trying to make, but statues of Lenin have quite rightly been pulled down, vandalised, had their heads removed, been moved to museums, and otherwise mocked.

There are two statues of Lenin in major US cities, both on private property. There is one in New York which is on top of a building, and another in Seattle which around this time of year is dressed in drag. The family who own it have set a ridiculous sale price which means it will probably be on display until some law is deliberately passed to forbid it.


The point I'm making is one of disproportionate and very selective outrage. These mobs were outraged enough to tear down a statue of Jefferson, letting the fact that he was a slave owner himself overshadow all other accomplishments and contributions he made to the world. Meanwhile, a statue to a man responsible for the death and persecution of millions, in much more recent history and with far more far-reaching consequences, remains standing and suffers no more vandalism than being dressed up or holding a burrito once in a while. And, somewhat disturbingly, sometimes getting his hands painted red. Which I thought was a reference to the blood on his hands, but is apparently some sort of communist adulation.

And yeah, it's privately owned, so the state can't do all that much. But I'm not terribly convinced that the mobs have all that much respect for private property, all things considered.


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ASPartOfMe
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18 Jun 2020, 3:47 pm

Pelosi removes paintings of Confederate leaders from Capitol

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Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Thursday ordered the removal of four portraits of former House speakers who also served as Confederate leaders, a symbolic step to rid the U.S. Capitol of pro-slavery relics amid a nationwide reckoning over race.

Pelosi will join the House clerk to take down the paintings Thursday afternoon, a day before the holiday “Juneteenth,” which marks the day that the last enslaved African Americans in the Confederacy learned of their freedom.

There’s no room in the hallowed halls in this democracy, this temple of democracy, to memorialize people who embody violent bigotry and grotesque racism of the Confederacy,” Pelosi told reporters Thursday. “We must lead by example.”

Pelosi’s move comes after she again sought to remove nearly a dozen Confederate statues in the Capitol, which have long been criticized by Democrats as glorifying pro-slavery politicians. But under current law, each state decides which statues to send, and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said last week he would also defer to the states.

Later on Thursday, Sen. Cory Booker (D-N.J.) tried to force action on legislation to remove Confederate statues from the Capitol. But Senate Rules Chairman Roy Blunt (R-Mo.) said he had just received the bill and that he wanted time to review it.

Blunt also suggested his committee might hold a hearing on the issue and said Democrats could lean on state leaders to change their statues. And he dinged Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) for not taking action when Schumer was Rules Committee chairman several years ago.

Booker then urged Blunt to hold a hearing, and Blunt said he hoped to continue talking to Booker about it.

“I will make the personal appeal to you individually on these matters. I hope we can do that,” Booker said.

Democrats made a similar push to remove Confederate statues from the Capitol in 2017, after the nation was roiled by a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Va., that left one woman dead.

But Pelosi does have the power to clear away the portraits, which are part of the speaker’s portrait collection lining the walls outside the House chamber. All four men — Robert Hunter of Virginia, Howell Cobb of Georgia, James Orr of South Carolina and Charles Crisp of Georgia — served as speakers of the House.

Pelosi noted she didn’t know about the men’s paintings hanging in the Capitol until the building’s curator informed them, part of a general inventory of the statues.

The push to remove pro-Confederacy memorabilia from the Capitol takes place as cities and towns nationwide have toppled their own Civil War-era statues and have sought to confront decades of systemic racism against black Americans. Much of the national scorn has focused on statues of men like Jefferson Davis — whose statue still stands in Statuary Hall outside the House chamber.


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18 Jun 2020, 3:50 pm

Hope she takes down any and paintings of slave owning house speakers too. So 1900 and older? Well I guess presumably a slave owner who lost their slaves after civil war could still have been alive and serving in the house. So 1950 and older should be taken down?
Why stop there, she should tear down the racist slave build building. Heck all of Washington DC was built with slave labor, using slave money. It should all be destroyed.
We can have everyone move else where and let the military have target practice or maybe a nuke then no one could ever live in that aweful place and we will forever remember


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sly279
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18 Jun 2020, 4:04 pm

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18 Jun 2020, 4:10 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
So how's that Lenin statue looking?

Not sure what point you’re trying to make, but statues of Lenin have quite rightly been pulled down, vandalised, had their heads removed, been moved to museums, and otherwise mocked.

There are two statues of Lenin in major US cities, both on private property. There is one in New York which is on top of a building, and another in Seattle which around this time of year is dressed in drag. The family who own it have set a ridiculous sale price which means it will probably be on display until some law is deliberately passed to forbid it.


The point I'm making is one of disproportionate and very selective outrage. These mobs were outraged enough to tear down a statue of Jefferson, letting the fact that he was a slave owner himself overshadow all other accomplishments and contributions he made to the world. Meanwhile, a statue to a man responsible for the death and persecution of millions, in much more recent history and with far more far-reaching consequences, remains standing and suffers no more vandalism than being dressed up or holding a burrito once in a while. And, somewhat disturbingly, sometimes getting his hands painted red. Which I thought was a reference to the blood on his hands, but is apparently some sort of communist adulation.

And yeah, it's privately owned, so the state can't do all that much. But I'm not terribly convinced that the mobs have all that much respect for private property, all things considered.


Why shouldn’t protests against systemic racism in America be selectively applied to American history?

What exactly did Lenin have to do with enslaving black people and then perpetuating a system of racial divide for 400 years in the USA? :?


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goldfish21
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18 Jun 2020, 4:12 pm

sly279 wrote:
Hope she takes down any and paintings of slave owning house speakers too. So 1900 and older? Well I guess presumably a slave owner who lost their slaves after civil war could still have been alive and serving in the house. So 1950 and older should be taken down?
Why stop there, she should tear down the racist slave build building. Heck all of Washington DC was built with slave labor, using slave money. It should all be destroyed.
We can have everyone move else where and let the military have target practice or maybe a nuke then no one could ever live in that aweful place and we will forever remember


You wonder why people don’t support your political views here but it’s little wonder to me at all. It’s because you continuously post thinly veiled support for whites supremacists & anti immigrant crap. Pretty much everyone else here finds those political leanings to be repulsive - hence the lack of people posting to back you up on any of this nonsense, ever.


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The_Walrus
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18 Jun 2020, 4:43 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
So how's that Lenin statue looking?

Not sure what point you’re trying to make, but statues of Lenin have quite rightly been pulled down, vandalised, had their heads removed, been moved to museums, and otherwise mocked.

There are two statues of Lenin in major US cities, both on private property. There is one in New York which is on top of a building, and another in Seattle which around this time of year is dressed in drag. The family who own it have set a ridiculous sale price which means it will probably be on display until some law is deliberately passed to forbid it.


The point I'm making is one of disproportionate and very selective outrage. These mobs were outraged enough to tear down a statue of Jefferson, letting the fact that he was a slave owner himself overshadow all other accomplishments and contributions he made to the world. Meanwhile, a statue to a man responsible for the death and persecution of millions, in much more recent history and with far more far-reaching consequences, remains standing and suffers no more vandalism than being dressed up or holding a burrito once in a while. And, somewhat disturbingly, sometimes getting his hands painted red. Which I thought was a reference to the blood on his hands, but is apparently some sort of communist adulation.

And yeah, it's privately owned, so the state can't do all that much. But I'm not terribly convinced that the mobs have all that much respect for private property, all things considered.

But again, statues of Lenin have been torn down all over the world, including the USA, decades ago. The one in Seattle is literally subject to a years-long campaign by residents to get it torn down. You chose an example that proves exactly the opposite point to the one you were trying to make.

The mob who pulled down the Jefferson statue were in Portland. The Lenin statue in Seattle is about 300km away. It is like asking why protesters in Goteborg didn’t tear down the statue of the Little Mermaid.



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18 Jun 2020, 4:49 pm

People here forgetting the statues in question invoke a particular response, Lenin, Saddam and other dictators have been publicly dealt with in their own countries. Jefferson's turn.



Wolfram87
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18 Jun 2020, 5:43 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
The mob who pulled down the Jefferson statue were in Portland. The Lenin statue in Seattle is about 300km away. It is like asking why protesters in Goteborg didn’t tear down the statue of the Little Mermaid.


I was under the impression that other statues in Seattle had been torn down? Either way, there does seem to be no shortage of indiscriminate vandalism in the name of avenging racism and/or slavery. In Philadelphia they vandalized a statue of Matthias Baldwin


cyberdad wrote:
People here forgetting the statues in question invoke a particular response, Lenin, Saddam and other dictators have been publicly dealt with in their own countries. Jefferson's turn.


So the founding fathers are on par with genocidal dictators that need to be "dealt with"?


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18 Jun 2020, 6:54 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
So the founding fathers are on par with genocidal dictators that need to be "dealt with"?


You are forgetting that for 15% of the US population Jefferson and Washington were cruel tyrants to their forefathers.

Its like erecting a statue of Pharoah Ramses II in Tel Aviv, jews know their history so will pull it down as he enslaved their forefathers.

African Americans are reminded of their inferior status just by being alive and they all know their ancestors were kept as chattel property with the blessing and participation of the founding fathers.



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18 Jun 2020, 8:39 pm

cyberdad wrote:
People here forgetting the statues in question invoke a particular response, Lenin, Saddam and other dictators have been publicly dealt with in their own countries. Jefferson's turn.



What response does this invoke? Auschwitz still stands, so that we never forget. Or aren't Jews dark skinned enough? Hitler was dealt with, this still stands and there are still Holocaust deniers.


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Persephone29
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18 Jun 2020, 8:41 pm

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cyberdad
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18 Jun 2020, 9:53 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
People here forgetting the statues in question invoke a particular response, Lenin, Saddam and other dictators have been publicly dealt with in their own countries. Jefferson's turn.



What response does this invoke? Auschwitz still stands, so that we never forget. Or aren't Jews dark skinned enough? Hitler was dealt with, this still stands and there are still Holocaust deniers.


Difference is Aushwitz is a shrine of remembrance for the millions who died (not just jews, also gyspies and other groups)

Statues of Rhodes, General Lee, Jefferson and Columbus are held up to celebrate these individuals, I don't have a problem with keeping them but present the public with their true history on a plaque warts and all.



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18 Jun 2020, 10:01 pm

Speaking from professional experience, if you wanted to preserve racist landmarks, you should have 3D scanned them.

That's how we do archaeology these days.


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18 Jun 2020, 10:31 pm

cberg wrote:
Speaking from professional experience, if you wanted to preserve racist landmarks, you should have 3D scanned them.

That's how we do archaeology these days.

Or read a book. Many of those who choose to sugar coat history and feign surprise at BLM have no interest in history or selectively choose what to remember.