Page 6 of 16 [ 241 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 16  Next

DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,317
Location: Northern California

02 Oct 2021, 4:14 pm

I think you and I come at the issue from such difference places we might drive each other nuts. Despite that risk, I will do my best to respond.

Brictoria wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:

You can find the numbers all over the internet, assuming you are capable of understanding what they mean.

Condescending attitude to those whose views I was trying to present noted.


I see that, but it isn't what I intended. I've found the patchwork way data is provided to be frustrating in that there is no way to put it all together into a clear, comparative formula that clearly shows relative risks. Understanding what the patchwork means takes some extra mental work that I would assume most people don't have the time or inclination to do. That isn't meant to be condescending; it is meant to be pragmatic.

Quote:
Let's look at these numbers from the internet (and, equally, their sources) which you use to answer the points in the preceding post to which you replied...


You know what? At least I tried. I tried to show how I've been pulling together the patchwork of information to come to a conclusion. I actually invested a decent amount of time doing so. It's one heck of a lot easier to say "you didn't do it right" than to actually DO it. I invited you to try and calculate it if you didn't like my attempt, but you answered with speeches not numbers. The epidemiologists who have the tools to do the correct calculations all reach the conclusion I did, but I assume we don't get to see their numbers because clearly one heck of a lot of steps and assumptions are involved, it does all vary by population groups, and that sort of detailed work doesn't normally get shared in a public forum for proprietary reasons. So I challenge you to do better. That is all. Give me numbers and do better than you think I did.

I am well aware there is no "one size fits all" answer on odds, but without fancy modeling tools the best I can do is a rough model that shows the trend. It still is much more than I see anyone else here doing, and I doubt you would see a different conclusion indicated for the average person if you did. The recommendations that come from experts come as they do for a reason, and we have enough parts of the data puzzle to see that those conclusions at least make sense. If you disagree, show me in numbers.

You asked a question and I did my best to answer it. The only way I could see to answer it was to attempt the math. I'm not selling anything; I tried to give an honest answer to what I thought was an honest question.

If it wasn't an honest question, then bad on you. If it was, I challenge you to try to do the math.

PS - I have no idea why you couldn't verify any of my numbers as being reasonable. They weren't precise for the two reasons: (1) different sources seemed to be giving different numbers, so I tried to pick something reasonable within range, (2) I need simple numbers to run a simple sample calculation. Again, I tried to pick something reasonable within range. This is how we check logic ALL THE TIME in my profession, using overly simplified examples. Sure they don't give the answer; they aren't meant to. They are meant to test whether or not something makes sense.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


Last edited by DW_a_mom on 02 Oct 2021, 5:24 pm, edited 7 times in total.

DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,317
Location: Northern California

02 Oct 2021, 4:32 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
The benefits of the vaccine far outweigh the risks.

Maybe, but only if you survive the shot .... and it doesn't have side-effects, or causes mutations, or harms your unborn child ...

"Rarely, some people may develop Guillain-Barre syndrome after getting the Janssen/Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine" .. which is nerve damage ... "Seek immediate medical care if you have weakness or tingling sensations, difficulty walking, difficulty with facial movements, double vision, and difficulty with bladder control.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus- ... de-effects

What do you make of people who die every year from flu vaccines?

To me that seems like one of the dumbest things to do, to willingly take a death shot.


The numbers are so incredibly small, and nearly always traceable to an underlying condition. I think it is important to know your own underlying conditions and whether or not vaccination is still recommended in your unique situation. People who are concerned should talk to their doctors, who hopefully have enough of the surrounding information to help the individual make an informed choice.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,317
Location: Northern California

02 Oct 2021, 4:40 pm

Brictoria wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Of course, this goes back to looking at the big picture, and lumping everyone together, and not looking at individuals.


That seems to be a major factor for the way those on the "left" think - that people should be dumped into "boxes" and treated as part of a "collective" who are "equal", rather than a community of individuals who have different values\beliefs\opinions\etc. - hence, for example, the expectation that all "black" people should believe certain things, vote certain ways, etc. and the subsequent attacks\racist slurs levelled at them should they act independently in a way that the person feels more appropriate for their situation, rather than behave as their "betters" desire them to - It comes across as a way to show "ownership" of the group and it's members, that those so "boxed" are not the equal of those placing them in the "boxes".


Human natures creates boxes. From where I sit, conservatives do it MORE OFTEN than the left, but I don't want to play another tit for tat game. It's annoying and accomplishes nothing.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


uncommondenominator
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Aug 2019
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 661

02 Oct 2021, 4:46 pm

Complains about others engaging in generalizations - makes generalizations about "the left".

Irony-------->
..........them

Sure is convenient how "the left" is this amazing shape-changing entity.

One minute they're trying to make everyone an individual special snowflake
Then suddenly! they're trying to stuff everyone in to boxes

One minute they're a bunch of limp wristed bleeding heart weak puny pushovers
Then suddenly! they're an army of jackbooted fascist enforcers

One minute they're trying to FORCE everyone to be polysexual tri-gendered multicolored omni-racial unicorns
Then suddenly! they actually HATE diversity, and anyone who's different

And also they generalize too much. The whole left generalizes too much. You shouldn't make generalizations about entire groups. Like the left does. The left over generalizes. You shouldn't over generalize an entire group.

It's interesting to note how some individuals seem to love the notion of "personal freedom", right up to the moment that someone else's Personal Freedom inconveniences them in the slightest.

"PERSONAL FREEDOM!
I can CHOOSE not to get the vaccine!
I can CHOOSE not to wear a mask!
I can CHOOSE to not live in fear!
Those are MY RIGHTS!! !"

Grocery store: "Well, we have the personal right and freedom to refuse business if you don't wear a mask."

"A MASK?!?!"


FASCISM!! ! FASCISM!! ! FASCISM!! !

"Statistically possible" is such a low bar, it's hardly worth mention. Getting mauled by a lion and a bear simultaneously is statistically possible, too. Statistically significant might mean something - but statistics also seem to lead a double life (like "the left") where stats are both meaningful metrics worthy of listening to, AND biased number-lies that can say whatever you want them to.

Not unlike people who dance back and forth between saying the big-picture is what needs to be looked at, unless it's actually the details that need paying attention to.

It's ALMOST as if some people simply see the world in whatever light is most favorable to what they already believe.



SpiceWolf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 732

02 Oct 2021, 10:39 pm

Brictoria wrote:
Similarly, there seems no way of verifying the percentage of those who have vaccinations and suffer side-effects as well, which is another number which is needed to allow people to make an informed decision: Even areas like SNIP note that their numbers are not suitable for reaching conclusions regarding vaccines, in part because notifications are voluntary, and only contain initial reported details among other potential areas which would affect data integrity.


No, but you have databases like the TGA's DAEN.
These don't capture all events, but the use the same catchment of reporters GP's Hospitals, Pharmacists etc.

So you can go to their site, I'd love to link directly to the search, but it wont let me.
Also use Chrome, the governments website doesn't like Firefox.
https://apps.tga.gov.au/PROD/DAEN/daen-entry.aspx

Type in AstraZeneca or Astrazeneca covid and then click on the one with, Chadox, in the name.
For timespan, choose 2018 to 2021, it hasn't been around long.

You'll get 39 pages of different kinds of reactions, and 35,000 actual incidents of those types.
As well as over 300 deaths attributed to the vaccine by the reporting entity.

Continued in next post due to captcha stupidity.



SpiceWolf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 732

02 Oct 2021, 10:40 pm

Now to give that some context.

Go back to the search page, and type in Twinrix. Select the non pediatric one.
Twinrix is a recombinant vaccine, the same tech as AstraZenecas, but for Hep AB instead of Sars-CoV-2.

Select 2010 to 2021 as your search range, about a decade.
One hundered and twenty three adverse events, and zero deaths.

Quite the difference isn't it. :)

You can't use this to make definitive statements since it doesn't capture all adverse events and it relies on the reporting entities judgement.
Yet because the reporting methodology and pool of reporting entities are the same for both, and the vaccines use the same technology. You CAN use it to make a fairly decent relative comparison between two vaccines.



DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,317
Location: Northern California

02 Oct 2021, 10:58 pm

In the US, we only use Pfizer, Moderna, or Johnson & Johnson. The first two are by far the most prevalent.

Side effect discussion on these three:

Quote:
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison

Pfizer-BioNTech
Pfizer-BioNTech was the first COVID-19 vaccine to receive full Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval for people ages 16 and older in August 2021. It was also the first COVID-19 vaccine to receive FDA Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) back in December 2020, after the company reported its vaccine was highly effective at preventing symptomatic disease. This is a messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine, which uses a relatively new technology. It must be stored in freezer-level temperatures, which can make it more difficult to distribute than some other vaccines.

Status: Approved for adults ages 16 and older in the U.S., with EUA for ages 12-15, and for specified age groups in other countries, including in the European Union (under the name Comirnaty). The CDC recommends a booster dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine for people 65 and up, residents of long-term care settings, and people 18 to 64 with underlying medical conditions or whose work may put them at higher risk of exposure to COVID-19. That latter group may include health care workers, teachers, and others. People with certain immunocompromising conditions can get a third dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccines so they can reach a level of immunity they were not able to reach after two doses.

Recommended for: Anyone 12 or older. The vaccine is being studied in children ages 5-11.

Dosage: Two shots, 21 days apart; fully effective two weeks after second shot. Single-shot booster doses can be administered to those who are eligible at least six months after completion of the primary doses.

Common side effects: Chills, headache, pain, tiredness, and/or redness and swelling at the injection site, all of which generally resolve within a day or two of rest, hydration, and medications like acetaminophen. (If symptoms don’t resolve within 72 hours or if you have respiratory symptoms, such as cough or shortness of breath, call your doctor.) On rare occasions, the vaccine has appeared to trigger anaphylaxis, a severe reaction that is treatable with epinephrine (the drug in Epipens®). For that reason, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) requires vaccination sites to monitor everyone for 15 minutes after their COVID-19 shot and for 30 minutes if they have a history of severe allergies.

FDA warnings: The FDA placed a warning label on the Pfizer vaccine regarding a “likely association” with reported cases of heart inflammation in young adults. This inflammation may occur in the heart muscle (myocarditis) or in the outer lining of the heart (pericarditis), and is considered important but uncommon—arising in about 12.6 cases per million second doses administered. The inflammation, in most cases, gets better on its own without medical intervention.

How it works: Unlike vaccines that put a weakened or inactivated disease germ into the body, the Pfizer mRNA vaccine delivers a tiny piece of genetic code from the SARS CoV-2 virus to host cells in the body, essentially giving those cells instructions, or blueprints, for making copies of spike proteins (the spikes you see sticking out of the coronavirus in pictures online and on TV). The spikes do the work of penetrating and infecting host cells. These proteins stimulate an immune response, producing antibodies and developing memory cells that will recognize and respond if the body is infected with the actual virus.

How well it works: Experts continue to learn about Pfizer’s efficacy both in the laboratory and in the real world. Pfizer’s initial Phase 3 clinical data presented in December showed its vaccine to have 95% efficacy. In April, the company announced the vaccine had 91.3% efficacy against COVID-19, based on measuring how well it prevented symptomatic COVID-19 infection seven days through up to six months after the second dose. It also found it to be 100% effective in preventing severe disease as defined by the CDC, and 95.3% effective in preventing severe disease as defined by the FDA. Another study, not yet peer-reviewed, provided more new data that brought the efficacy number down to 84% after 6 months, although efficacy against severe disease was 97%.

In August, the CDC also published studies that showed mRNA vaccine protection against infection may be waning, although the vaccines were still highly effective against hospitalization. In one CDC study, data from the state of New York showed vaccine effectiveness dropping from 91.7 to 79.8% against infection.

How well it works on virus mutations: A number of studies have focused on the vaccine and the mutations. In early May, the Pfizer vaccine was found to be more than 95% effective against severe disease or death from the Alpha variant (first detected in the United Kingdom) and the Beta variant (first identified in South Africa) in two studies based on real-world vaccinations.

As far as the Delta variant, two studies reported by Public Health England that have not yet been peer reviewed showed that full vaccination after two doses is 88% effective against symptomatic disease and 96% effective against hospitalization. But Israel later reported the vaccine’s effectiveness to be 90% effective against severe disease, and 39% against infection in its population in late June and early July, based on an analysis of the country's national health statistics.
Moderna

Moderna’s vaccine was authorized for emergency use in the U.S. in December 2020, about a week after the Pfizer vaccine. Moderna uses the same mRNA technology as Pfizer and has a similarly high efficacy at preventing symptomatic disease. It also needs to be stored in freezer-level temperatures. In mid-August, the FDA approved a third dose of the Moderna vaccine for certain immuno-compromised individuals, including solid organ transplant recipients and those with conditions that give them an equally reduced ability to fight infections and other diseases.

Status: Emergency use in the U.S and other countries, including in the European Union (it’s been approved in Switzerland) and other countries. Moderna booster shots are not available at this time, but the company has initiated its submission to the FDA for evaluation of a half dose booster of its vaccine.

Recommended for: Adults 18 and older. While the vaccine is not yet available for children, the company says its vaccine provides strong protection for children as young as 12, and it is testing its efficacy for children ages 5-11.

Dosage: Two shots, 28 days apart; fully effective two weeks after the second dose.

Common side effects: Similar to Pfizer, side effects can include chills, headache, pain, tiredness, and/or redness and swelling at the injection site, all of which generally resolve within a day or two. On rare occasions, mRNA vaccines have appeared to trigger anaphylaxis, a severe reaction that is treatable with epinephrine (the drug in Epipens®). For that reason, the CDC requires vaccination sites to monitor everyone for 15 minutes after their COVID-19 shot, and for 30 minutes if they have a history of severe allergies.

FDA warnings: The FDA placed a warning label on the Moderna vaccine regarding a “likely association” with reported cases of heart inflammation in young adults. This inflammation may occur in the heart muscle (myocarditis) or in the outer lining of the heart (pericarditis), and is considered important but uncommon—arising in about 12.6 cases per million second doses administered. The inflammation, in most cases, gets better on its own without treatment.

How it works: Similar to the Pfizer vaccine, this is an mRNA vaccine that sends the body’s cells instructions for making a spike protein that will train the immune system to recognize it. The immune system will then attack the spike protein the next time it sees one (attached to the actual SARS CoV-2 virus).

How well it works: Moderna’s initial Phase 3 clinical data in December 2020 was similar to Pfizer’s—at that point, both vaccines showed about 95% efficacy. This figure has changed over time. At six months after vaccination, the Moderna vaccine was shown to have efficacy of 90% against infection and more than 95% against developing a severe case, according to the company. In addition, while both Pfizer and Moderna still are considered highly effective, several recent studies showed Moderna to be more protective. One study published in The New England Journal of Medicine found Moderna vaccine to be 96.3% effective in preventing symptomatic illness in health care workers compared to 88.8% for Pfizer. Another, from the CDC, found Moderna’s effectiveness against hospitalization held steady over a four-month period, while Pfizer’s fell from 91% to 77%. This research is still limited and more data is needed to fully understand the differences between the two vaccines.

How well it works on virus mutations: Some research has suggested that Moderna’s vaccine may provide protection against the Alpha and Beta variants. In June, Moderna reported that studies showed its vaccine is effective against the Beta, Delta, Eta, and Kappa variants, although it did show it to be about two times weaker against Delta than against the original virus.
Johnson & Johnson

The FDA granted EUA for Johnson & Johnson’s vaccine in February, 70 days after Pfizer and Moderna. Unlike the mRNA vaccines, this is a carrier, or virus vector, vaccine. It can be stored in normal refrigerator temperatures, and because it requires only a single shot, it is easier to distribute and administer.

Status: Emergency use in the U.S. and other countries, including in the European Union (under the name Janssen).

Recommended for: Adults 18 and older.

Dosage: Single shot. Fully effective two weeks after vaccination.

Common side effects: Fatigue, fever headache, injection site pain, or myalgia (pain in a muscle or group of muscles), all of which generally resolve within a day or two. It has had noticeably milder side effects than the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, according to the FDA report released in late February. No one suffered an allergic reaction in clinical trials for the vaccine, according to the company.

FDA warnings: The FDA has attached two warnings to the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. In July, the FDA attached a warning after rare cases of the neurological disorder Guillain-Barré syndrome were reported in a small number of vaccination recipients. Most of the cases occurred within 42 days after vaccination.

In April, the FDA added a warning label after ending a pause on the vaccine it had recommended “out of an abundance of caution” over an uncommon, but potentially serious, blood clotting disorder that occurred in a small number of recipients.

How it works: This is a carrier vaccine, which uses a different approach than the mRNA vaccines to instruct human cells to make the SARS CoV-2 spike protein. Scientists engineer a harmless adenovirus (a common virus that, when not inactivated, can cause colds, bronchitis, and other illnesses) as a shell to carry genetic code on the spike proteins to the cells (similar to a Trojan Horse). The shell and the code can’t make you sick, but once the code is inside the cells, the cells produce a spike protein to train the body’s immune system, which creates antibodies and memory cells to protect against an actual SARS-CoV-2 infection.

How well it works: 72% overall efficacy and 86% efficacy against moderate and severe disease in the U.S., according to analyses posted by the FDA in February. There is no J&J booster shot available yet and the company has not yet applied for authorization for one, but the CDC says it is likely people who received Johnson & Johnson will need a booster dose, and that more data is expected in the coming weeks. Johnson & Johnson did release data in September that suggested a booster shot given two months after the first dose could increase its vaccine’s effectiveness against hospitalization and death to 94%.

How well it works on virus mutations: Johnson & Johnson reported in July that its vaccine is also effective against the Delta variant, showing only a small drop in potency compared with its efficacy against the original strain of the virus, although one recent study suggested that the J&J vaccine is less effective against Delta.

But the first study to assess the vaccine against Delta in the real world reported the vaccine to be 71% effective against hospitalization and up to 95% effective against death. The vaccine’s performance was slightly lower against the Beta variant in the study. This preliminary research was reported in August at a news conference by the Ministry of Health in South Africa. These studies have not yet been peer-reviewed or published in a scientific journal.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


TheRobotLives
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 7 Dec 2019
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,036
Location: Quiet, Dark, Comfy Spot

03 Oct 2021, 5:43 am

uncommondenominator wrote:
Complains about others engaging in generalizations - makes generalizations about "the left".

Maybe just call them, *the usual suspects*.


_________________
Then a hero comes along, with the strength to carry on, and you cast your fears aside, and you know you can survive.

Be the hero of your life.


Brictoria
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 2013
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,418
Location: Melbourne, Australia

03 Oct 2021, 7:36 am


_________________
Quote:
"We count on the space of trust that confidentiality provides. When someone breaches that trust, we are all worse off for it." - Hillary Clinton

Quote:
"Sometimes I think that this is an era when sanity has become controversial." - Thomas Sowell


ezbzbfcg2
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,661
Location: New Jersey, USA

03 Oct 2021, 7:46 am

I don't want to die, but if I do die from COVID for not being vaccinated...then it's entirely on me. My RISK.

And even if I do decide to get the vaccination, I'd feel no ill-will toward the unvaccinated.

What bothers me is this bizarre mindset. We went from "Get the vaccine and you'll be safe!" to "Your vaccine magically won't work unless EVERYONE is also vaccinated."

Honest to Christ, some of you will believe anything you're told. If tomorrow, the government said, "Don't get the booster," you'd scream at people who did. Jeez.

This is a serious gripe. Why do you believe your vaccine will be useless unless everyone is vaccinated? That sure as hell wasn't the case for things like measles or mumps or rubella.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 52,103
Location: Stendec

03 Oct 2021, 10:33 am

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
I don't want to die, but if I do die from COVID for not being vaccinated...then it's entirely on me. My RISK…
… and the risk of anyone who comes in contact with you while you are dying.

And while you are dying, I want you to remember three things: (1) You could have made the better choice; (2) Your choice led to your death; and (3) I told you so.



Brictoria
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 2013
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,418
Location: Melbourne, Australia

03 Oct 2021, 11:00 am

Fnord wrote:
ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
I don't want to die, but if I do die from COVID for not being vaccinated...then it's entirely on me. My RISK…
… and the risk of anyone who comes in contact with you while you are dying.

And while you are dying, I want you to remember three things: (1) You could have made the better choice; (2) Your choice led to your death; and (3) I told you so.


So:
You must have the injection...
Because if you don't, then you are putting at risk of infection those who have had the injection...
Despite the injection being marketed as protecting the recipients against infection...

I believe that's the general message received by those who are hesitant...


_________________
Quote:
"We count on the space of trust that confidentiality provides. When someone breaches that trust, we are all worse off for it." - Hillary Clinton

Quote:
"Sometimes I think that this is an era when sanity has become controversial." - Thomas Sowell


Joe90
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 21,286
Location: UK

03 Oct 2021, 1:30 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
I don't want to die, but if I do die from COVID for not being vaccinated...then it's entirely on me. My RISK.

And even if I do decide to get the vaccination, I'd feel no ill-will toward the unvaccinated.

What bothers me is this bizarre mindset. We went from "Get the vaccine and you'll be safe!" to "Your vaccine magically won't work unless EVERYONE is also vaccinated."

Honest to Christ, some of you will believe anything you're told. If tomorrow, the government said, "Don't get the booster," you'd scream at people who did. Jeez.

This is a serious gripe. Why do you believe your vaccine will be useless unless everyone is vaccinated? That sure as hell wasn't the case for things like measles or mumps or rubella.


I agree. Everyone who is vaccinated are still at the same risk of catching covid than those who are not vaccinated, but their risk of getting ill or dying from covid is lower than those that are unvaccinated. You being vaccinated does not protect other people (whether they're vaccinated or not), it just protects you. That's why I don't think people should be forced to be vaccinated if they don't want to be. A democratic country should allow people to have this choice.


_________________
Female
Aged 31
On antidepressants
Have ASD, ADHD and anxiety disorder
Empathy score: 61 out of a possible 80. (High)


DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,317
Location: Northern California

03 Oct 2021, 1:40 pm

Joe90 wrote:
ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
I don't want to die, but if I do die from COVID for not being vaccinated...then it's entirely on me. My RISK.

And even if I do decide to get the vaccination, I'd feel no ill-will toward the unvaccinated.

What bothers me is this bizarre mindset. We went from "Get the vaccine and you'll be safe!" to "Your vaccine magically won't work unless EVERYONE is also vaccinated."

Honest to Christ, some of you will believe anything you're told. If tomorrow, the government said, "Don't get the booster," you'd scream at people who did. Jeez.

This is a serious gripe. Why do you believe your vaccine will be useless unless everyone is vaccinated? That sure as hell wasn't the case for things like measles or mumps or rubella.


I agree. Everyone who is vaccinated are still at the same risk of catching covid than those who are not vaccinated, but their risk of getting ill or dying from covid is lower than those that are unvaccinated. You being vaccinated does not protect other people (whether they're vaccinated or not), it just protects you. That's why I don't think people should be forced to be vaccinated if they don't want to be. A democratic country should allow people to have this choice.


Not the same risk. While infections do breakthrough, the rate is 1/4 compared to those not vaccinated. The overall rates of infection drop dramatically in areas with high vaccination rates, despite the fact that after vaccination people tend to be less persistent with other measures of protection.

I believe in choice, but it should be accurately informed.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 43,960
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

03 Oct 2021, 2:44 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
I don't want to die, but if I do die from COVID for not being vaccinated...then it's entirely on me. My RISK.

And even if I do decide to get the vaccination, I'd feel no ill-will toward the unvaccinated.

What bothers me is this bizarre mindset. We went from "Get the vaccine and you'll be safe!" to "Your vaccine magically won't work unless EVERYONE is also vaccinated."

Honest to Christ, some of you will believe anything you're told. If tomorrow, the government said, "Don't get the booster," you'd scream at people who did. Jeez.

This is a serious gripe. Why do you believe your vaccine will be useless unless everyone is vaccinated? That sure as hell wasn't the case for things like measles or mumps or rubella.


Well, if it's your choice to risk getting Covid, then don't go to the hospital if you do, because too many people who weren't irresponsible and who have medical concerns lose out on hospital beds - - because of unvaccinated people getting Covid!


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Soliloquist
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 447

03 Oct 2021, 3:20 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Not the same risk. While infections do breakthrough, the rate is 1/4 compared to those not vaccinated. The overall rates of infection drop dramatically in areas with high vaccination rates, despite the fact that after vaccination people tend to be less persistent with other measures of protection.

I believe in choice, but it should be accurately informed.


NewsRescue - August 8, 2021 wrote:
Australia, Israel Report 95-99% Hospitalized Fully Vaccinated

Reports coming out of Israel claim hospitals are being filled with vaccinated people, 95 percent of whom are suffering serious illness being fully vaccinated.

“I understand that most of the patients are vaccinated, even ‘severe’ patients. Exactly. Naturally occurring. Old people, most of them are vaccinated,” Israeli Dr. Kobi Haviv told News Israel 13 Thursday.

“Most of the population is vaccinated, and 90%… 85%-90% of the hospitalizations here are ‘Fully vaccinated’ people.”

Dr. Haviv claims the infections mean the vaccines’ “effectiveness” is fading, possibly setting up a scenario where booster shots emerge as a necessary treatment.

The news out of Israel coincides with similar statistics coming out of Sydney, Australia, where government health officials late last month announced nearly all new Covid hospitalizations involve vaccinated people – except one.

The same phenomenon is being observed across the globe as the vaccine propaganda ratchets up in response to the dreaded Delta variant.

In Singapore:
Image

In England:

BREAKING: Figures from Public Health England say 55% of people hospitalised with the delta variant were unvaccinated, while nearly 35% had received two doses of a vaccine.

In Gibraltar:

By June 1, over 99% of Gibraltar's population was fully vaccinated.

Since that time, new COVID cases per day have increased more than 2500%.
Image
And in Iceland:

1/ Meanwhile, back to Iceland for a minute.

The country is a vaccinators' paradise. 90% of people 40-70 and 98% (!) of those over 70 are fully vaccinated.

On June 26, it abolished all lockdown rules. "Thank you for this joint struggle," the Health Minister said.

Alas:

*Entire* adult population vaccinated
Infections *mostly* amongst vaccinated


Source

This is how effective the experimental injection has been in Israel.
So effective that they are now talking about a fourth booster shot.
Image
Image

Quote:
IT NEVER ENDS: Israel says FOURTH “booster” vaccine will be required to keep covid “green pass” active

Posted on September 27, 2021

IT NEVER ENDS: Israel says FOURTH “booster” vaccine will be required to keep covid “green pass” active

Dr Eddy Betterman

As the United States enters the third “booster shot” phase of the Wuhan coronavirus (Covid-19) plandemic, Israel is already on its fourth shot.

In order for Israelis to maintain their “green pass,” they will now need to get a fourth injection. If they refuse, their “vaccine passports” will soon expire.

“The green character is life!” the government of Israel tweeted. “Do not give it up.”

“Distribute further,” the tweet added, alongside a green recycle symbol. “For everyone to know: On October 3, 21, the eligibility policy for the green label will be changed. Get vaccinated now – and keep the character. All the details that must be known prior to the changes in the link.”

That link takes Israelis to a government website that explains how Fauci Flu shots, no matter how many of them there end up being, are absolutely necessary to stay “safe” against Chinese Germs.

Israel’s Ministry of Health further announced that Israelis will need to get re-injected every six months in order to keep their green passes up to date. If they fail to get the required next dosages, residents will have their passes suspended until compliance is met.
Israel wants everyone to get jabbed again and again, forever

Prof. Salman Zarka, Israel’s “coronavirus czar,” publicly announced that getting a fourth booster shot will result in Israelis being granted “fully vaccinated” status, allowing them full entry into all indoor spaces.

“Given that the virus is here and will continue to be here, we also need to prepare for a fourth injection,” Zarka said, suggesting that the “green pass” will constantly have to be updated for each new injection.

There really is no end to the number of new shots that the government of Israel plans to introduce. And we expect that the government of the United States, which is tied at the hip to Israel, will likely try to implement the same.

Israeli researchers claim that a third dose of the vaccine is simply not enough to provide lasting protection against a Wuhan Flu infection. Only with a fourth, followed by a fifth, injection can people stay safe, they insist.

Via https://dreddymd.com/2021/09/28/israel- ... ss-active/


Source