Actor Alec Baldwin shoots 2 people, killing one of them.

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cyberdad
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22 Oct 2021, 7:44 pm

Some information about prop guns
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59006905

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22 Oct 2021, 7:44 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Replacement Non- union worker was in charge of the prop gun.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com ... p-gun/amp/


Hmm, seems to confirm my theory about a revolver and the frontal shot, though I'm confused by their use of the term "misfire", as that typically refers to a malfunction of the firearm, and not an inadvertent discharge as seems to have happened here. The pictures show a single action revolver, and those typically have very light trigger pulls to begin with, so perhaps they're referring to other people prematurely firing them on the set? Regardless, none of that should have mattered if they'd kept live ammo off the set.

I have to wonder if who they hired even knew anything about firearms.


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22 Oct 2021, 7:45 pm

Incredibly sad and unfortunate, my heart goes out to the family and friends of Halyna Hutchins.

I would assume the incident will be investigated and dissected in detail in the hopes of it never repeating. I've also appreciated the details and speculation offered by our resident firearms experts.


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22 Oct 2021, 8:37 pm

Misslizard wrote:
I have to wonder if who they hired even knew anything about firearms.


Apparently just enough to be dangerous.

In this case, I'm betting they used a real gun, and someone made up dummy rounds by pulling the powder from off the shelf cartridges (an easy project for someone who handloads) for use in close up shots, but they let one get through that hadn't actually been modified and looked identical to the dummies.


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22 Oct 2021, 9:07 pm

Such a sad tragedy to happen, I don't think Alec Baldwin will ever get over it.
condolences to the Family of halyna Hutchins.



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22 Oct 2021, 10:23 pm

Certainly the Hutchins family will be wondering why Baldwin was aiming the prop gun at his staff? It's an accident but it might change the way these props are handled in future, my guess is Baldwin wasn't mindful what happened to Brandon Lee.



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22 Oct 2021, 10:24 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Replacement Non- union worker was in charge of the prop gun.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com ... p-gun/amp/


Goes to show you, despite what anti-labor types claim, union workers are the most reliable.


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22 Oct 2021, 11:07 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Replacement Non- union worker was in charge of the prop gun.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com ... p-gun/amp/


Hmm, seems to confirm my theory about a revolver and the frontal shot, though I'm confused by their use of the term "misfire", as that typically refers to a malfunction of the firearm, and not an inadvertent discharge as seems to have happened here. The pictures show a single action revolver, and those typically have very light trigger pulls to begin with, so perhaps they're referring to other people prematurely firing them on the set? Regardless, none of that should have mattered if they'd kept live ammo off the set.


The claims of a "misfire" may simply be a preperation to try and argue what occurred was an "accident" (and possibly hoping to also limit civil responsibility), as oposed to a negligent or reckless action on his part...In the former, Mr Baldwin would have limited legal liability, whereas the later would likely lead to a manslaughter charge and\or civil liability.

Another factor in this case is that Mr Baldwin is not only an actor on this production, but also a producer:
Quote:
Implications of Baldwin as Both Shooter and Producer

By the way, before I move on to discussing criminal recklessness, there’s another factor in this tragic event that will likely play a role in civil liability, and perhaps criminal liability, if any, for Alec Baldwin.

so, Alec Baldwin was both the actor handling the firearm when it discharged—and an actor might argue that he is at the “bottom” of the safety responsibility ladder for something like a movie set—but he was also a co-producer for the film—which would place him at the “top” of the safety responsibility ladder.

In theory, an actor at the “bottom” and the producer at the “top” might each point their finger at each other in the case of a tragic event like this. That is, the actor might argue that the producer ought to have had better safety protocols in place, and the producer might argue that the actor had the ultimately responsibility for safe handling of the firearm.

In this case, however, Alec Baldwin occupies both seats. So he can point his finger in this manner if he wishes, but ultimately he’ll be pointing it at himself.

And this implication could well apply not merely in the civil law context, within the scope of negligence, but also within the criminal law context, within the scope of recklessness and involuntary manslaughter.

Source: https://lawofselfdefense.com/alec-baldwin-shoots-woman-dead-innocent-accident-or-involuntary-manslaughter/

The above link is from a lawyer who specialises in "use of force" aspects of the law, and is written so that people without legal background can understand the possible legal outcomes\issues involved... Rather informative, and as he says in the article:
Quote:
To be clear, our goal here is not necessarily to arrive at a definitive legal answer—I’m not sure we really know enough facts with enough certainty to do that.

But if we can’t immediately arrive at the right legal answer, at the very least we can understand how to ask the right legal question—and that’s what we’ll do right here, right now.


Something else I'm not sure has been covered, but would potentially be an important factor - did this projectile hit these people directly, pass through some equipment (either safety screens, or cameras, etc) before hitting them, deflect from items to hit the victims (who were out of the line of fire), or was it metal\glass\plastic shrapnel from something that the projectile impacted on which caused their injuries?



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22 Oct 2021, 11:17 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
I have to wonder if who they hired even knew anything about firearms.


Apparently just enough to be dangerous.

In this case, I'm betting they used a real gun, and someone made up dummy rounds by pulling the powder from off the shelf cartridges (an easy project for someone who handloads) for use in close up shots, but they let one get through that hadn't actually been modified and looked identical to the dummies.


Certainly sounds plausible...Alternatively, there's also the possibility that firearm security on the set was lax, and people had been "borrowing" the weapons to shoot at cans, etc. when bored, leaving live rounds in the weapon, and no-one checked before using it on set.



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22 Oct 2021, 11:25 pm

Aprilviolets wrote:
Such a sad tragedy to happen, I don't think Alec Baldwin will ever get over it.


Considering what I have seen of his contributions to social media, I'm sure many see this as some form of of karma (which unfortunately impacted on another person as well) given his attitude towards others in a similar position to that in which he is in now.



cyberdad
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23 Oct 2021, 12:28 am

legal advice to date suggest Baldwin is not legally responsible
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/politics- ... e-rcna3646
Based on reports so far, if he trusted the crew to hand him a prop weapon and had no reason to believe it was a loaded gun, and if he didn’t do anything irresponsible with what he believed was a non-gun, then law enforcement will likely conclude he did nothing wrong.

The most likely outcome will be civil lawsuit from the Sousa and Hutchin families alleging that the crew members, producers and companies’ conduct was negligent. Baldwin is not included in this list.



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23 Oct 2021, 1:35 am

Quote:
The assistant director of the western film “Rust” grabbed a prop pistol from a gray cart and handed it to the movie’s star, Alec Baldwin, shouting “cold gun!” — which was supposed to indicate that it did not contain any live rounds, and was safe to handle around the crew huddled by the camera.

But the weapon fired when Mr. Baldwin pulled the trigger a few minutes later, discharging a live projectile that hit the director, Joel Souza, in the shoulder and struck the director of photography, Halyna Hutchins, in the chest, killing her.

The first official account of the killing, which has rocked the entertainment industry and raised questions about workplace safety issues in film productions, was released late Friday in an affidavit filed by the Santa Fe County sheriff’s department seeking to search the rustic wooden building where the shooting happened.

A state magistrate judge granted the request, which includes an examination of the gun for biological evidence as well as a review of cameras, film, memory cards or other video recorders that may provide information in the case. Mr. Baldwin has cooperated with investigators, a spokesman for the department said. No charges have been filed in the shooting.

[...]

A fatal shooting Thursday on the set of the movie “Rust” killed the film’s cinematographer and wounded the director. Alec Baldwin, one of the starring actors and a producer of the film, fired a weapon used as a prop.

The local police agency is investigating and has made few details public so far.

Here are some things we do not yet know:

What kind of gun was used?

What kind of projectile was in the gun?

Was a scene being filmed, or rehearsed, when the gun was fired?

Who was the armorer or prop master on the set, and what were the safety protocols for using weapons as props? Were the protocols followed?

How was it that two people were struck? Was the weapon discharged more than once?

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/10/22/us/alec-baldwin-shooting-movie-set#affidavit-says-assistant-director-indicated-he-gave-alec-baldwin-a-cold-gun-that-was-empty

It appears that the armorer and assistant director will potentially have legal liability in this along with Mr Baldwin, and that Mr Baldwin will face additional civil liability, as he is also a\the producer for the film.



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23 Oct 2021, 1:58 am

Brictoria wrote:
Mr Baldwin will face additional civil liability, as he is also a\the producer for the film.


Sorry I stand corrected.



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23 Oct 2021, 2:58 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Replacement Non- union worker was in charge of the prop gun.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com ... p-gun/amp/


Goes to show you, despite what anti-labor types claim, union workers are the most reliable.


It seems like the producer was ignoring union rules\"guidelines":
Quote:
Safety Tips for Use of Firearms

[...]
Treat all guns as if they are loaded and deadly.
[...]
Never point a firearm at anyone including yourself. Always cheat the shot by aiming to the right or left of the target character. If asked to point and shoot directly at a living target, consult with the property master or armorer for the prescribed safety procedures.
[...]
Use protective shields for all off stage cast within close proximity to any shots fired.
[...]
Check the firearm every time you take possession of it. Before each use, make sure the gun has been test-fired off stage and then ask to test fire it yourself. Watch the prop master check the cylinders and barrel to be sure no foreign object or dummy bullet has become lodged inside.

Blanks are extremely dangerous. Even though they do not fire bullets out of the gun barrel, they still have a powerful blast than can maim or kill.
[...]
If you are in a production where shots are to be fired and there is no qualified property master, go to the nearest phone and call Actors' Equity Association. A union representative will make sure proper procedures are followed.

State and federal safety laws must be honored at all times.

Source: https://www.actorsequity.org/resources/Producers/safe-and-sanitary/safety-tips-for-use-of-firearms/

Interestingly, the Producer was a union member - https://www.actorsequity.org/join/HIGMEC/AlecBaldwin/

So it seems union membership has no bearing on this case, nor any relationship to the "reliability" of the person\people involved...



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23 Oct 2021, 3:43 am

Brictoria wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Replacement Non- union worker was in charge of the prop gun.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com ... p-gun/amp/


Goes to show you, despite what anti-labor types claim, union workers are the most reliable.


It seems like the producer was ignoring union rules\"guidelines":
Quote:
Safety Tips for Use of Firearms

[...]
Treat all guns as if they are loaded and deadly.
[...]
Never point a firearm at anyone including yourself. Always cheat the shot by aiming to the right or left of the target character. If asked to point and shoot directly at a living target, consult with the property master or armorer for the prescribed safety procedures.
[...]
Use protective shields for all off stage cast within close proximity to any shots fired.
[...]
Check the firearm every time you take possession of it. Before each use, make sure the gun has been test-fired off stage and then ask to test fire it yourself. Watch the prop master check the cylinders and barrel to be sure no foreign object or dummy bullet has become lodged inside.

Blanks are extremely dangerous. Even though they do not fire bullets out of the gun barrel, they still have a powerful blast than can maim or kill.
[...]
If you are in a production where shots are to be fired and there is no qualified property master, go to the nearest phone and call Actors' Equity Association. A union representative will make sure proper procedures are followed.

State and federal safety laws must be honored at all times.

Source: https://www.actorsequity.org/resources/Producers/safe-and-sanitary/safety-tips-for-use-of-firearms/

Interestingly, the Producer was a union member - https://www.actorsequity.org/join/HIGMEC/AlecBaldwin/

So it seems union membership has no bearing on this case, nor any relationship to the "reliability" of the person\people involved...


I was talking about the non-union crew (including whoever prepared the gun) who replaced the union workers who walked off the set to protest bad working conditions. Had their concerns been met, this might not have happened.


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Brictoria
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23 Oct 2021, 4:08 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Replacement Non- union worker was in charge of the prop gun.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com ... p-gun/amp/


Goes to show you, despite what anti-labor types claim, union workers are the most reliable.


It seems like the producer was ignoring union rules\"guidelines":
Quote:
Safety Tips for Use of Firearms

[...]
Treat all guns as if they are loaded and deadly.
[...]
Never point a firearm at anyone including yourself. Always cheat the shot by aiming to the right or left of the target character. If asked to point and shoot directly at a living target, consult with the property master or armorer for the prescribed safety procedures.
[...]
Use protective shields for all off stage cast within close proximity to any shots fired.
[...]
Check the firearm every time you take possession of it. Before each use, make sure the gun has been test-fired off stage and then ask to test fire it yourself. Watch the prop master check the cylinders and barrel to be sure no foreign object or dummy bullet has become lodged inside.

Blanks are extremely dangerous. Even though they do not fire bullets out of the gun barrel, they still have a powerful blast than can maim or kill.
[...]
If you are in a production where shots are to be fired and there is no qualified property master, go to the nearest phone and call Actors' Equity Association. A union representative will make sure proper procedures are followed.

State and federal safety laws must be honored at all times.

Source: https://www.actorsequity.org/resources/Producers/safe-and-sanitary/safety-tips-for-use-of-firearms/

Interestingly, the Producer was a union member - https://www.actorsequity.org/join/HIGMEC/AlecBaldwin/

So it seems union membership has no bearing on this case, nor any relationship to the "reliability" of the person\people involved...


I was talking about the non-union crew (including whoever prepared the gun) who replaced the union workers who walked off the set to protest bad working conditions. Had their concerns been met, this might not have happened.

Maybe a union member substituted some live rounds, hoping to cause the filming to be shut down in order to have safety there investigated, not realising that the round would be used for the type of filming which occurred?
Maybe a union member was responsible for the firing of the other union members because he didn't care about their concerns, and instead brought in non-union staff, whereas a non-union member in the same position might not have done so.
Maybe a union member ignored safety rules and accepted another person's word rather than taking precautions the union requies members to take in that situation, whereas a non-union member may have followed those rules\guidelines.
Maybe a union member had not followed safety requirements in the storing of ammunition, and their replacement wasn't aware of this, whereas a non-union member may have been more responsible in the care of items.

There is nothing here to say that union members are any more (or less) reliable than non-union members... It is equally possible that the same outcome would have occurred regardless of union membership (or lack thereof) of those involved. The actions reflect upon the individuals involved, not some mythical "protection"\"infallibility" conveyed by being a member of a union.