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Brictoria
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06 Nov 2021, 6:22 am

Dox47 wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Having watched Friday's portion of the trial until they went to lunch, the witnesses for the prosecution gave the impression of assisting the defence more than the prosecution.


That's been the case throughout this whole thing, even the initial charging documents read more like a clearing statement, I'm starting to seriously wonder if they're throwing this case, or just going through the motions so no one can later say they didn't, it's downright weird.


Having watched the footage for the entire day, it certainly seems the investigation was conducted with a focus on confirming Mr Rittenhouse was the person who fired the gun (DNA swabs on rifle only for areas the person holding it would be expected to have made contact with it, for instance), rather than on anything which could disprove\counter any of the required aspects of self-defence, and the prosecution are following this same path.

It was interesting to learn that Mr Huber knew\was friends with Mr Blake, though - unfortunately, the prosecutions (wise, in the circumstances) decision not to continue the line of questioning regarding character evidence from his great aunt (in order to prevent less favourable character evidence being introduced through cross-examination) limited what was learnt about the friendship.

As I understand things, the lead detective in the case is apparently the nephew of the town's mayor (who, it has been suggested, was hoping to use Mr Rittenhouse as a scapegoat to cover the mayor's lack of action during the "mostly peaceful protests" in\around the city), and the lead prosecutor (Mr Binger) may have been hoping to use the high profile case to help launch a campaign for DA (either in Kenosha or another attempt in Racine where he was unsuccesful in 2016).

Given the way the prosecution haven't really presented anything that would support "reasonable doubt" in any of the required components for the self-defence claim, it will be interesting to see what happens if\when the defence move for a directed verdict once all the prosecution's witnesses have been examined\cross examined.


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06 Nov 2021, 9:48 am

This is a long thread and I don't know if anybody has mentioned that Joseph Rosenbaum was once convicted of a sex offense. This is interesting (please don't misinterpret me to claim I said it was "relevant" as I have not said that!) but interesting to think about. So when I searched on his name, to learn what sort of person he was (to help determine whether one could justifiably think of him as a victim) I came across the fact that he was once convicted of a sex crime. I didn't do a deep dive into the details, but it occurred to me that what he did (in light of my limited understanding) might not have even been chargeable as a crime in some states.

Maybe not relevant, but like I said interesting.


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Brictoria
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06 Nov 2021, 11:07 am

MaxE wrote:
This is a long thread and I don't know if anybody has mentioned that Joseph Rosenbaum was once convicted of a sex offense. This is interesting (please don't misinterpret me to claim I said it was "relevant" as I have not said that!) but interesting to think about. So when I searched on his name, to learn what sort of person he was (to help determine whether one could justifiably think of him as a victim) I came across the fact that he was once convicted of a sex crime. I didn't do a deep dive into the details, but it occurred to me that what he did (in light of my limited understanding) might not have even been chargeable as a crime in some states.

Maybe not relevant, but like I said interesting.


It wouldn't have any relevence with regards to what occurred on the night, but could still be introduced as evidence of his character should the prosecution try to bring up his character\claiming he was a "good" person. The same would apply regarding the other 2 victims as well (none of the 3 people shot were "angels"[1]).

As it was, the prosecution's questioning of his fiancee on Friday opened the door to the defence having her mention he was bipolar (due to medication he was supposed to be taking), and came close to mentioning that he had just been released from a psychiatric hospital that day (admitted following suicide attempt)... He also had an active restraining order (domestic violence) from his fiancee which he had breached earlier in the day as well, but this was not referred to\introduced to the jury.

There was a legal discussion on Friday about this subject between the lawyers and judge (jury not present) regarding introduction of character evidence from Mr Huber's great-aunt (see the video under "Susan Hughes: Final Argument (post-lunch)" which is about 16 minutes long at https://lawofselfdefense.com/rittenhouse-trial-day-4-two-state-blunders-create-opportunity-for-the-defense/ if you are interested in this area) - The judge was in favor of permitting the prosecution's line of questioning, defence indicated what they would introduce as rebuttal, judge agreed if prosecution's evidence was permitted then the defence's likely would be as well, and prosecution decided not to proceed along that line.

[1]
Quote:
What’s True — and False — About the Victims’ Criminal Histories

The viral claims alleging unlawful behavior by Huber, Rosenbaum, and Grosskreutz before the Kenosha shooting were a mixture of truth and falsehoods.

For example, yes, at age 19, Rosenbaum was sentenced to prison for sexually abusing five children — all boys between the ages of 9 and 11 — in Arizona’s Pima County in early 2002, according to his case file obtained via a public records request by Snopes.

The documents said Rosenbaum was temporarily living with the boys’ parents after his mother had kicked him out for disobeying her rules about one month earlier. Over the course of his weeks-long stay, Rosenbaum molested the boys, showed them porn, and performed oral sex on them, among other offenses, the documents showed. He was sentenced to prison for roughly 15 years, and authorities believed at the time “his risk to recidivate being of great concern to the community” considering the victims’ gender and age. (Let us note here: The records included an interview with Rosenbaum in which he said his stepfather sexually abused him and his brother on an almost daily basis when he was a preteen.)

Considering that evidence, the claim that Rosenbaum at one point was convicted of sexually abusing at least one child before his death was true.

Next, we analyzed criminal records involving Huber, and determined it also accurate to state he was charged with domestic abuse. We uncovered a Kenosha County criminal complaint that outlined his first serious run-in with law enforcement, in December 2012. And per that complaint, Huber, who was 18 years old at the time, threatened his brother and grandmother at their home with a knife, choked the brother, and demanded that they follow his orders. The complaint said the brother wanted to take Huber to a hospital, apparently for emergency mental health help, but Huber resisted. In the end, he was charged with strangulation and suffocation and false imprisonment, both of which are felony crimes.

On another occasion, about three years later, Huber paid a roughly $150 citation or possessing drug paraphernalia, court records showed. Then, in 2018, Huber was charged with disorderly conduct, a misdemeanor offense, after a fight with his sister at their house, per a criminal complaint by Kenosha prosecutors.

But unlike what many Rittenhouse supporters claimed, we could find no court evidence that Huber had sexually assaulted anyone.

Also false was the assertion that all three of the teenager’s victims were felons. Grosskreutz had not committed a felony crime, our analysis of court records showed.

He was, however, found guilty in 2016 of breaking Wisconsin’s law governing the use of dangerous weapons — a misdemeanor offense — per Milwaukee County court records. He had apparently gone somewhere “armed while intoxicated,” though the court records did not elaborate on what exactly had happened. Snopes requested a copy of the probable cause statement from county records administrators, but we have not yet obtained it.

Additionally, Grosskreutz at various points received tickets for minor offenses including disobeying police officers and making loud noises, the court records showed. However, no evidence showed he had indeed committed burglary, like supporters of the alleged killer claimed, though he had been arrested on suspicion of the crime in 2012. The felony charge was later dismissed, per Wisconsin Department of Justice’s criminal data.

In the interview with CNN, Grosskreutz said he has paid his debt for his past crimes and that he had every right to carry a gun at the Aug. 25 protest. “I’m not a felon,” he said. “I had a legal right to possess [a firearm] and to possess it concealed.”

Source: https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/09/11/rittenhouse-victims-records/


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06 Nov 2021, 11:46 am

MaxE wrote:
but it occurred to me that what he did (in light of my limited understanding) might not have even been chargeable as a crime in some states.

Anal rape of a child, penis touching children, putting his penis in a child's mouth, and molestation of eleven boys age 9-11 ?

Joseph Rosenbaum: Sex Offender 2002 Arizona Criminal Complaint
https://www.wisconsinrightnow.com/2021/ ... -offender/


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06 Nov 2021, 12:09 pm

MaxE wrote:
This is a long thread and I don't know if anybody has mentioned that Joseph Rosenbaum was once convicted of a sex offense. This is interesting (please don't misinterpret me to claim I said it was "relevant" as I have not said that!) but interesting to think about. So when I searched on his name, to learn what sort of person he was (to help determine whether one could justifiably think of him as a victim) I came across the fact that he was once convicted of a sex crime. I didn't do a deep dive into the details, but it occurred to me that what he did (in light of my limited understanding) might not have even been chargeable as a crime in some states.

Maybe not relevant, but like I said interesting.

Since it did not seem relevant I did not bring it up.
Since we are bringing this type information of up.
Anthony Huber was designated a repeat “domestic abuse” offender
Quote:
Records show Huber was a repeat arrestee for domestic violence.

In one instance he was arrested on charges of related to the alleged strangulation and suffocation, use of a dangerous weapon, false imprisonment, battery and disorderly conduct related to the domestic assault.

In another domestic abuse arrest Huber was brought up on charges of battery and disorderly conduct and designated a repeat abuser.


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06 Nov 2021, 10:15 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
AliceCooper wrote:
I did not watch this not yet. Which side is winning the state or the defense?

There are too many questions.

A huge question is whether the judge will greatly narrow Rittenhouse's self-defense and require he "exhausted every other reasonable means to escape from or otherwise avoid those possible consequences", because Rittenhouse was illegally carrying a weapon.

This would give the jury more leeway to find him guilty.


Thank You!


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07 Nov 2021, 2:26 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Maybe not relevant, but like I said interesting
Since it did not seem relevant I did not bring it up.
Since we are bringing this type information of up.
Anthony Huber was designated a repeat “domestic abuse” offender


Do you think Rittenhouse knew all this when he intentionally killed them? The defense are digging dirt.



Last edited by cyberdad on 07 Nov 2021, 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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07 Nov 2021, 5:11 am

I watched Fridays, and I have to say I'm impressed with both sides. But The defense did an excellent job for his client. The part where he, said how sure are you. He didn't say I shot someone and I need help, and he also got them to say he was helping people, and the guy he shot Rosenbaum was aggressive, and they found a loaded gun. I got myself caught up on this. It looks like self-defense to me. If someone pointed a loaded gun at you and lunged at you with a skateboard and you were carrying wouldn't you fire on them?

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/580184-witness-testifies-shooting-victim-lunged-for-rittenhouses-gun


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07 Nov 2021, 5:20 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
MaxE wrote:
but it occurred to me that what he did (in light of my limited understanding) might not have even been chargeable as a crime in some states.

Anal rape of a child, penis touching children, putting his penis in a child's mouth, and molestation of eleven boys age 9-11 ?

Joseph Rosenbaum: Sex Offender 2002 Arizona Criminal Complaint
https://www.wisconsinrightnow.com/2021/ ... -offender/

OK i thought I read something else. Yeah those are serious crimes and it's in fact surprising he's not still serving time. I won't contest the accuracy of that report. I guess the whole country will soon know everything anyway.

But like I said, irrelevant. It has no bearing on Mr. Rittenhouse's innocence or guilt.


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07 Nov 2021, 7:43 pm

When even TYT think that Mr Rittenhouse will be found not guilty on 5 of the 6 charges (gun possesion being the one they don't), it's certainly not a good sign for the prosecution.


Off Topic
It's also interesting to look at the "new information" (which has been publicy available and widely disseminated for around 12 months) which caused the opinion of the presenter to change, and consider how many people still are either unaware of this, or intentionally ignore it...


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07 Nov 2021, 10:11 pm

AliceCooper wrote:
I watched Fridays, and I have to say I'm impressed with both sides. But The defense did an excellent job for his client. The part where he, said how sure are you. He didn't say I shot someone and I need help, and he also got them to say he was helping people, and the guy he shot Rosenbaum was aggressive, and they found a loaded gun. I got myself caught up on this. It looks like self-defense to me. If someone pointed a loaded gun at you and lunged at you with a skateboard and you were carrying wouldn't you fire on them?

The prosecution argued that Rittenhouse just murdered someone, and skateboarder and loaded gun guy were rightfully trying to stop an active shooter so he doesn't kill anyone else.

So, it appears the trial will hinge on the initial killing of Rosenbaum.
___________________________________________________________

My opinion has been FOUR SHOTS into Rosenbaum is overkill.
___________________________________________________________

McGinnis (witness) testified that Rittenhouse dodged Rosenbaum's lunge, and because of the lunge, Rosenbaum was falling to the ground.

McGinnis (witness) further testified that it's not even clear if Rosenbaum presented any danger before the first shot, because as discussed above, Rittenhouse dodged the lunge, and Rosenbaum was falling to the ground.

However, for some reason, Rittenhouse, maybe inexperienced, maybe scared, decided to put four shots into Rosenbaum.

The fourth shot was into Rosenbaum's back (because he was falling), and was the kill shot, according to the medical examiner.

The prosecutor will ask the jury, How is shooting an unarmed, falling man in his back self-defense?


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08 Nov 2021, 12:08 am

Brictoria wrote:
When even TYT think that Mr Rittenhouse will be found not guilty on 5 of the 6 charges (gun possesion being the one they don't), it's certainly not a good sign for the prosecution.


They're trying to cushion the blow to their viewers, they know conviction is looking less and less likely.

Brictoria wrote:
Off Topic
It's also interesting to look at the "new information" (which has been publicy available and widely disseminated for around 12 months) which caused the opinion of the presenter to change, and consider how many people still are either unaware of this, or intentionally ignore it...


Lot of that going around.


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Brictoria
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08 Nov 2021, 12:18 am

It seems Andrew Branca has put together an article about the possibility of the prosecution trying to use "provocation" as the reason "self defence" would not be permitted, and discussing all the aspects that may (or may not) support such a strategy.

It's an interesting, albeit slightly long, article - https://lawofselfdefense.com/possible-rittenhouse-trial-prosecution-hail-mary-kyle-provoked-the-attacks/


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08 Nov 2021, 8:14 am

Brictoria wrote:
It seems Andrew Branca has put together an article about the possibility of the prosecution trying to use "provocation" as the reason "self defence" would not be permitted, and discussing all the aspects that may (or may not) support such a strategy.

It's an interesting, albeit slightly long, article - https://lawofselfdefense.com/possible-rittenhouse-trial-prosecution-hail-mary-kyle-provoked-the-attacks/

The prosecution made this argument on Friday, and the judge didn't stop them, so I wonder why this lawyer thinks "it would not be permitted".


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08 Nov 2021, 2:09 pm

Gaige Grosskreutz testified today...

1. Grosskreutz was pursuing Rittenhouse as an active shooter.
2. Rittenhouse aimed his rifle at Grosskreutz before Grosskreutz drew his pistol.
3. Grosskreutz put his hands up, and Rittenhouse reloaded (re-racked) his rifle.
4. Grosskreutz interpreted this action as Rittenhouse was getting ready to kill him.
4. Grosskreutz only drew his pistol in self-defense, in fear Rittenhouse (active shooter) who he just witnessed shoot (kill) Huber, would shoot him.

So, Rittenhouse provoked this confrontation by first pointing his rifle at an unarmed Grosskreutz?


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08 Nov 2021, 2:49 pm

I hear the cross didn't go so well for the one armed bandit...


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