Kyle Rittenhouse trial
30 Oct 2021, 2:07 am
Interesting update from the defence team, giving an indication of what they'll be presenting in the trial:
Quote:
The ambush/attack on Kyle
11:42PM
Kyle tries to get back to CarSource #1 (business he was helping) but is blocked by police vehicles. Police order him to get away and prevent him from leaving the area.
The ambush/attack on Kyle
11:45PM
Kyle receives a call asking him to put out a car fire at CarSource #2 (same business owner, second location)
11:46PM
Kyle picks up a fire extinguisher from the gas station and runs approximately three blocks south to extinguish the fire.
The ambush/attack on Kyle
11:48
Kyle arrives at the second CarSource location with fire extinguisher in hand. Bystanders begin calling for others to attack Kyle. Kyle yells “friendly, friendly, friendly”
The ambush/attack on Kyle
11:48PM (The following events took place in less than 10 seconds)
1. Kyle reaches the vehicle on fire but stops when he encounters a 6”5’ man brandishing a handgun named Joshua Ziminski.
2. Joshua confronts Kyle and moves towards him with handgun.
The ambush/attack on Kyle
3. Kyle drops the fire extinguisher and begins to flee. Bystanders are yelling threats and carrying eight foot steel poles.
4. Kyle looks over his shoulder and sees a man rushing towards him with his face covered - Joseph Rosenbaum
The ambush/attack on Kyle
5. Kyle flees from Ziminski and Rosenbaum’s ambush. Kyle turns around when Joseph Rosenbaum thew something at him but did NOT fire. Kyle turned back around and kept fleeing.
The ambush/attack on Kyle
6. For no reason at all, Joshua Ziminski fired his handgun as Kyle was fleeing. Kyle thought he was being shot at. Kyle turned around to see the masked Rosenbaum inches from him yelling “f**k you” and grabbing for his weapon.
The ambush/attack on Kyle
The fire extinguisher remained on the ground in the location that Kyle dropped it for seven minutes.
11:55
The fire extinguisher was picked up and taken from the scene by an uknown individual.
Kyle was attacked for carrying a fire extinguisher even after telling his soon-to-be attackers that he was friendly.
Kyle ran towards the police to turn himself in when he was chased down and jumped by a violent mob.
He was less than a block away from police line.
Joshua Ziminski has been charged with arson.
Joshua Ziminski provoked Kyle causing Kyle to flee.
Joshua Ziminski fired the first shot of the night while Kyle was fleeing.
The State doesn’t want you to know about Joshua Ziminski’s role b/c it destroys their narrative.
11:42PM
Kyle tries to get back to CarSource #1 (business he was helping) but is blocked by police vehicles. Police order him to get away and prevent him from leaving the area.
The ambush/attack on Kyle
11:45PM
Kyle receives a call asking him to put out a car fire at CarSource #2 (same business owner, second location)
11:46PM
Kyle picks up a fire extinguisher from the gas station and runs approximately three blocks south to extinguish the fire.
The ambush/attack on Kyle
11:48
Kyle arrives at the second CarSource location with fire extinguisher in hand. Bystanders begin calling for others to attack Kyle. Kyle yells “friendly, friendly, friendly”
The ambush/attack on Kyle
11:48PM (The following events took place in less than 10 seconds)
1. Kyle reaches the vehicle on fire but stops when he encounters a 6”5’ man brandishing a handgun named Joshua Ziminski.
2. Joshua confronts Kyle and moves towards him with handgun.
The ambush/attack on Kyle
3. Kyle drops the fire extinguisher and begins to flee. Bystanders are yelling threats and carrying eight foot steel poles.
4. Kyle looks over his shoulder and sees a man rushing towards him with his face covered - Joseph Rosenbaum
The ambush/attack on Kyle
5. Kyle flees from Ziminski and Rosenbaum’s ambush. Kyle turns around when Joseph Rosenbaum thew something at him but did NOT fire. Kyle turned back around and kept fleeing.
The ambush/attack on Kyle
6. For no reason at all, Joshua Ziminski fired his handgun as Kyle was fleeing. Kyle thought he was being shot at. Kyle turned around to see the masked Rosenbaum inches from him yelling “f**k you” and grabbing for his weapon.
The ambush/attack on Kyle
The fire extinguisher remained on the ground in the location that Kyle dropped it for seven minutes.
11:55
The fire extinguisher was picked up and taken from the scene by an uknown individual.
Kyle was attacked for carrying a fire extinguisher even after telling his soon-to-be attackers that he was friendly.
Kyle ran towards the police to turn himself in when he was chased down and jumped by a violent mob.
He was less than a block away from police line.
Joshua Ziminski has been charged with arson.
Joshua Ziminski provoked Kyle causing Kyle to flee.
Joshua Ziminski fired the first shot of the night while Kyle was fleeing.
The State doesn’t want you to know about Joshua Ziminski’s role b/c it destroys their narrative.
Source: https://twitter.com/freekyleusa/status/1453290714058706950
30 Oct 2021, 4:44 am
Mikah wrote:
In a sane world he'd be free already,.
Feel free to explain that to his victim's parents and family face to face. Infact I invite everyone here considering his actions heroic to stand by what they say to the parents, See how you go.
Shittenhouse illegally possessed a loaded firearm to begin with (in case you have amnesia he faces a charge for illegal firearm possession). As a minor he crossed state borders to enter into a chaotic city that had a curfew in effect which he deliberately violated. When cross-examined he lied numerous times. He has lied when he told investigators he was hired to protect private property when no private property owners in Wisconsin asked him. That's called vigilanteism,
He faces extremely serious, multiple charges for killing people and attempted murder, he doesn't live or work in Wisconsin and has, other than the murders, has zero to do with Wisconsin. He also fought extradition in at least two hearings and drove by numerous Wisconsin police departments the night of the shootings when he could and should have stopped and turned himself in. Even after bail he was a flight risk. The coward showed no remorse for his killings appearing in a Proud boys video being toasted at a bar while drinking.
Shittenhouse is going to jail. The question is for how long. I am sure the black prisoners will be looking forward to entertaining him in their bunk beds.
30 Oct 2021, 5:27 am
Brictoria wrote:
Kyle tries to get back to CarSource #1 (business he was helping)
It was reported the business didn't know anything about him.
Kenosha car dealer denies he asked gunmen to protect his business
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/cri ... 705974002/
This furthers the narrative that Rittenhouse was an out of control vigilante.
It also suggests Rittenhouse lied about his reasons for being there.
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Be the hero of your life.
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30 Oct 2021, 6:59 pm
cyberdad wrote:
Feel free to explain that to his victim's parents and family face to face. Infact I invite everyone here considering his actions heroic to stand by what they say to the parents, See how you go.
Your son did something stupid to the wrong person, sorry for your loss.
cyberdad wrote:
Shittenhouse illegally possessed a loaded firearm to begin with (in case you have amnesia he faces a charge for illegal firearm possession). As a minor he crossed state borders to enter into a chaotic city that had a curfew in effect which he deliberately violated.
Oh no, misdemeanor possession and curfew violation, better clutch those pearls extra hard.
cyberdad wrote:
When cross-examined he lied numerous times. He has lied when he told investigators he was hired to protect private property when no private property owners in Wisconsin asked him. That's called vigilanteism,
He has not been cross examined, as the trial has not started, and the facts regarding the property owners, who may themselves have lied in order to avoid liability, have not been established. The only one with an established record of lying here is you.
cyberdad wrote:
He faces extremely serious, multiple charges for killing people and attempted murder, he doesn't live or work in Wisconsin and has, other than the murders, has zero to do with Wisconsin.
Well, he did meet up with a local friend to do volunteer work earlier in the day, the same friend who allegedly supplied the rifle, so it sure sounds like he did in fact have some ties to Wisconsin, which is not surprising considering how close to the border he lived. I think we're all aware of the nature of the charges he faces FYI, considering the title of the thread and the discussion there in and all.
cyberdad wrote:
He also fought extradition in at least two hearings and drove by numerous Wisconsin police departments the night of the shootings when he could and should have stopped and turned himself in. Even after bail he was a flight risk.
He was likely in shock the night of the shooting, and fighting extradition was a routine legal maneuver in a case like this, I don't know what sinister intent you're trying to read into it. Also, you're yet again showing your ignorance with the flight risk comment, he's a young man with few resources and no known ties outside the country, that is not a flight risk, a term usually reserved for people like foreign nationals with large bank accounts and non-US citizenship.
cyberdad wrote:
The coward showed no remorse for his killings appearing in a Proud boys video being toasted at a bar while drinking.
Coward? He put himself in harms way to protect the property of strangers, and gunned down two felons and a minor crook who attacked him for doing so; what is there to feel remorse for there? I don't really care who his drinking partners were either, in his position I'd probably also accept a drink from whoever wanted to buy me one.
cyberdad wrote:
Shittenhouse is going to jail. The question is for how long.
Doubtful, though your childish comment has been noted, hence my frequent commentary towards you to allow the adults to speak.
cyberdad wrote:
I am sure the black prisoners will be looking forward to entertaining him in their bunk beds.
Creepy. Does that get you off? It sure sounds like you're hoping that happens, which is disgusting on so many levels, and just when I thought my opinion of you couldn't get any lower.
_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson
30 Oct 2021, 9:38 pm
Dox47 wrote:
Well, he did meet up with a local friend to do volunteer work earlier in the day, the same friend who allegedly supplied the rifle, so it sure sounds like he did in fact have some ties to Wisconsin, which is not surprising considering how close to the border he lived. I think we're all aware of the nature of the charges he faces FYI, considering the title of the thread and the discussion there in and all.
Not sure whether you remember, but there was information published at that time about him working as a "community lifeguard" in Kenosha that morning, with him volunteering to clean up graffitti at a school afterwards.
Regarding the distance - where I grew up in the country the nearest town (population around 100) was 5 miles from the farm, and the nearest large town\small city (only place for "part time"\after school work, where most people went to do their shopping, etc. and where the nearest secondary schools were located) was around 17 miles away, so I can understand how Kenosha could be considered somewhere "local" to him. To a person who has never ventured outside a city, however, I can understand how they could think such a distance was excessive, given the likelihood of facilities much closer to their residence, and not understanding\caring that rural people don't have such easy lives in this regard.
It's hard to confirm now with all the trial related entires clogging up the search engines, but I found this:
Quote:
In a statement by Rittenhouse’s legal team at Pierce Bainbridge, provided to the Gateway Pundit, they explained that “after Kyle finished his work that day as a community lifeguard in Kenosha, he wanted to help clean up some of the damage, so he and a friend went to the local public high school to remove graffiti by rioters.”
Additionally, the weapon Rittenhouse was using to protect himself and others never crossed state lines.
Additionally, the weapon Rittenhouse was using to protect himself and others never crossed state lines.
Quote:
“Later in the day, they received information about a call for help from a local business owner, whose downtown Kenosha auto dealership was largely destroyed by mob violence,” the statement continues. “Business owner needed help to protect what he had left of his life’s work, including two nearby mechanic’s shops. Kyle and a friend armed themselves with rifles due to the deadly violence gripping Kenosha and many other American cities, and headed to the business premises. The weapons were in Wisconsin and never crossed state lines.”
Source: https://community.agriculture.com/t5/Ag-Forum/Kyle-Rittenhouse-the-rest-of-the-story/td-p/771865
I haven't been able to find anything refuting the above\stating that he hadn't been working in Kenosha that day, although with the flood of entries related to the trial, it is difficult to track down older updates\details...
30 Oct 2021, 10:02 pm
^
That's right, I'd forgotten he was a lifeguard there as well. That's also a bit hard to square with the "he just wanted to kill people" narrative, though doubtlessly someone will try.
_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson
30 Oct 2021, 11:54 pm
Judge Schroeder said he will rule Monday on Rittenhouse's defense team latest motion to drop the *gun possession as a minor* charge.
This will be a huge decision for Rittenhouse, because if the charge stands, the prosecutor can argue Rittenhouse is not entitled to legal self-defense, because he was engaged in an illegal activity.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/cri ... 549233002/
_________________
Then a hero comes along, with the strength to carry on, and you cast your fears aside, and you know you can survive.
Be the hero of your life.
31 Oct 2021, 1:40 am
TheRobotLives wrote:
Judge Schroeder said he will rule Monday on Rittenhouse's defense team latest motion to drop the *gun possession as a minor* charge.
This will be a huge decision for Rittenhouse, because if the charge stands, the prosecutor can argue Rittenhouse is not entitled to legal self-defense, because he was engaged in an illegal activity.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/cri ... 549233002/
This will be a huge decision for Rittenhouse, because if the charge stands, the prosecutor can argue Rittenhouse is not entitled to legal self-defense, because he was engaged in an illegal activity.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/cri ... 549233002/
From your own link:
Quote:
The defense is generally not available to people involved in illegal activity that could provoke an attack — except if their lives are threatened, but then the person claiming it must show they "exhausted every other means of escape," before resorting to deadly force.
Given that he was fleeing and trapped at the time of all 3 shootings, this is largely academic. The language regarding "illegal activity that could provoke an attack" also allows some leeway, as merely carrying a firearm is clearly not what was intended, the statute is referring to situations more like someone who picks a fight and then kills the guy who attacks him, which is not what happened here.
_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson
Last edited by Dox47 on 31 Oct 2021, 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
31 Oct 2021, 2:26 am
TheRobotLives wrote:
Judge Schroeder said he will rule Monday on Rittenhouse's defense team latest motion to drop the *gun possession as a minor* charge.
This will be a huge decision for Rittenhouse, because if the charge stands, the prosecutor can argue Rittenhouse is not entitled to legal self-defense, because he was engaged in an illegal activity.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/cri ... 549233002/
This will be a huge decision for Rittenhouse, because if the charge stands, the prosecutor can argue Rittenhouse is not entitled to legal self-defense, because he was engaged in an illegal activity.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/cri ... 549233002/
That charge was the most likely one that he would have been found guilty on (were he to be found guilty on any of them), given there are several ways in which it can be read:
948.60 Possession of a dangerous weapon by a person under 18.
Quote:
948.60(1)(1) In this section, "dangerous weapon" means any firearm, loaded or unloaded; any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (1c) (a); metallic knuckles or knuckles of any substance which could be put to the same use with the same or similar effect as metallic knuckles; a nunchaku or any similar weapon consisting of 2 sticks of wood, plastic or metal connected at one end by a length of rope, chain, wire or leather; a cestus or similar material weighted with metal or other substance and worn on the hand; a shuriken or any similar pointed star-like object intended to injure a person when thrown; or a manrikigusari or similar length of chain having weighted ends.
948.60(2) (2)
948.60(2)(a)(a) Any person under 18 years of age who possesses or goes armed with a dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
948.60(2)(b) (b) Except as provided in par. (c), any person who intentionally sells, loans or gives a dangerous weapon to a person under 18 years of age is guilty of a Class I felony.
948.60(2)(c) (c) Whoever violates par. (b) is guilty of a Class H felony if the person under 18 years of age under par. (b) discharges the firearm and the discharge causes death to himself, herself or another.
948.60(2)(d) (d) A person under 17 years of age who has violated this subsection is subject to the provisions of ch. 938 unless jurisdiction is waived under s. 938.18 or the person is subject to the jurisdiction of a court of criminal jurisdiction under s. 938.183.
948.60(3) (3)
948.60(3)(a)(a) This section does not apply to a person under 18 years of age who possesses or is armed with a dangerous weapon when the dangerous weapon is being used in target practice under the supervision of an adult or in a course of instruction in the traditional and proper use of the dangerous weapon under the supervision of an adult. This section does not apply to an adult who transfers a dangerous weapon to a person under 18 years of age for use only in target practice under the adult's supervision or in a course of instruction in the traditional and proper use of the dangerous weapon under the adult's supervision.
948.60(3)(b) (b) This section does not apply to a person under 18 years of age who is a member of the armed forces or national guard and who possesses or is armed with a dangerous weapon in the line of duty. This section does not apply to an adult who is a member of the armed forces or national guard and who transfers a dangerous weapon to a person under 18 years of age in the line of duty.
948.60(3)(c) (c) This section applies only to a person under 18 years of age who possesses or is armed with a rifle or a shotgun if the person is in violation of s. 941.28 or is not in compliance with ss. 29.304 and 29.593. This section applies only to an adult who transfers a firearm to a person under 18 years of age if the person under 18 years of age is not in compliance with ss. 29.304 and 29.593 or to an adult who is in violation of s. 941.28.
948.60(2) (2)
948.60(2)(a)(a) Any person under 18 years of age who possesses or goes armed with a dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
948.60(2)(b) (b) Except as provided in par. (c), any person who intentionally sells, loans or gives a dangerous weapon to a person under 18 years of age is guilty of a Class I felony.
948.60(2)(c) (c) Whoever violates par. (b) is guilty of a Class H felony if the person under 18 years of age under par. (b) discharges the firearm and the discharge causes death to himself, herself or another.
948.60(2)(d) (d) A person under 17 years of age who has violated this subsection is subject to the provisions of ch. 938 unless jurisdiction is waived under s. 938.18 or the person is subject to the jurisdiction of a court of criminal jurisdiction under s. 938.183.
948.60(3) (3)
948.60(3)(a)(a) This section does not apply to a person under 18 years of age who possesses or is armed with a dangerous weapon when the dangerous weapon is being used in target practice under the supervision of an adult or in a course of instruction in the traditional and proper use of the dangerous weapon under the supervision of an adult. This section does not apply to an adult who transfers a dangerous weapon to a person under 18 years of age for use only in target practice under the adult's supervision or in a course of instruction in the traditional and proper use of the dangerous weapon under the adult's supervision.
948.60(3)(b) (b) This section does not apply to a person under 18 years of age who is a member of the armed forces or national guard and who possesses or is armed with a dangerous weapon in the line of duty. This section does not apply to an adult who is a member of the armed forces or national guard and who transfers a dangerous weapon to a person under 18 years of age in the line of duty.
948.60(3)(c) (c) This section applies only to a person under 18 years of age who possesses or is armed with a rifle or a shotgun if the person is in violation of s. 941.28 or is not in compliance with ss. 29.304 and 29.593. This section applies only to an adult who transfers a firearm to a person under 18 years of age if the person under 18 years of age is not in compliance with ss. 29.304 and 29.593 or to an adult who is in violation of s. 941.28.
Source: https://law.justia.com/codes/wisconsin/2015/chapter-948/section-948.60/
Most people read the headline section and stop reading at that point:
Quote:
948.60(2)(a)(a) Any person under 18 years of age who possesses or goes armed with a dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
The problem with that aproach is that they are ignorant of the later section which indicates the exemptions to the law, which is where the contention comes from:
Quote:
948.60(3)(c) (c) This section applies only to a person under 18 years of age who possesses or is armed with a rifle or a shotgun if the person is in violation of s. 941.28 or is not in compliance with ss. 29.304 and 29.593.
So, he was under 18, and was in possesion of\armed with a rifle... At this point, the law clearly states it is not applicable to him unless he was "in violation of s. 941.28 or is not in compliance with ss. 29.304 and 29.593."
So, let's have a look at these laws that he needs to be in violation of\not in compliance with:
941.28 Possession of short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle.
Quote:
(1) In this section:
(a) “Rifle" means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder or hip and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of a propellant in a metallic cartridge to fire through a rifled barrel a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.
(b) “Short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels having a length of less than 16 inches measured from closed breech or bolt face to muzzle or a rifle having an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(c) “Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels having a length of less than 18 inches measured from closed breech or bolt face to muzzle or a shotgun having an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(d) “Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder or hip and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of a propellant in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
(2) No person may sell or offer to sell, transport, purchase, possess or go armed with a short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle.
(3) Any person violating this section is guilty of a Class H felony.
(4) This section does not apply to the sale, purchase, possession, use or transportation of a short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle to or by any armed forces or national guard personnel in line of duty, any peace officer of the United States or of any political subdivision of the United States or any person who has complied with the licensing and registration requirements under 26 USC 5801 to 5872. This section does not apply to the manufacture of short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles for any person or group authorized to possess these weapons. The restriction on transportation contained in this section does not apply to common carriers. This section shall not apply to any firearm that may be lawfully possessed under federal law, or any firearm that could have been lawfully registered at the time of the enactment of the national firearms act of 1968.
(5) Any firearm seized under this section is subject to s. 968.20 (3) and is presumed to be contraband.
(a) “Rifle" means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder or hip and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of a propellant in a metallic cartridge to fire through a rifled barrel a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.
(b) “Short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels having a length of less than 16 inches measured from closed breech or bolt face to muzzle or a rifle having an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(c) “Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels having a length of less than 18 inches measured from closed breech or bolt face to muzzle or a shotgun having an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(d) “Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder or hip and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of a propellant in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
(2) No person may sell or offer to sell, transport, purchase, possess or go armed with a short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle.
(3) Any person violating this section is guilty of a Class H felony.
(4) This section does not apply to the sale, purchase, possession, use or transportation of a short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle to or by any armed forces or national guard personnel in line of duty, any peace officer of the United States or of any political subdivision of the United States or any person who has complied with the licensing and registration requirements under 26 USC 5801 to 5872. This section does not apply to the manufacture of short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles for any person or group authorized to possess these weapons. The restriction on transportation contained in this section does not apply to common carriers. This section shall not apply to any firearm that may be lawfully possessed under federal law, or any firearm that could have been lawfully registered at the time of the enactment of the national firearms act of 1968.
(5) Any firearm seized under this section is subject to s. 968.20 (3) and is presumed to be contraband.
Source: https://law.justia.com/codes/wisconsin/2020/chapter-941/section-941-28/
29.304 Restrictions on hunting and use of firearms by persons under 16 years of age.
Quote:
(1) Persons under 12 years of age.
(a) Prohibition on hunting. No person under 12 years of age may hunt with a firearm, bow and arrow, or crossbow.
(b) Restrictions on possession or control of a firearm. No person under 12 years of age may have in his or her possession or control any firearm unless he or she is enrolled in the course of instruction under the hunter education program and he or she is carrying the firearm in a case and unloaded to or from that class under the supervision of his or her parent or guardian, or by a person at least 18 years of age who is designated by the parent or guardian, or is handling or operating the firearm during that class under the supervision of an instructor.
(c) Restrictions on obtaining hunting approval. Except as provided under par. (d), no person under 12 years of age may obtain any approval authorizing hunting.
(d) Restrictions on validity of certificate of accomplishment. A person under 12 years of age may obtain a certificate of accomplishment if he or she complies with the requirements of s. 29.591 (4) but that certificate is not valid for the hunting of small game until that person becomes 12 years of age.
(2) Persons 12 to 14 years of age.
(a) Restrictions on hunting. No person 12 years of age or older but under 14 years of age may hunt unless he or she is accompanied by his or her parent or guardian, or by a person at least 18 years of age who is designated by the parent or guardian.
(b) Restrictions on possession or control of a firearm. No person 12 years of age or older but under 14 years of age may have in his or her possession or control any firearm unless he or she:
1. Is accompanied by his or her parent or guardian or by a person at least 18 years of age who is designated by the parent or guardian; or
2. Is enrolled in the course of instruction under the hunter education program and is carrying the firearm in a case and unloaded to or from that class or is handling or operating the firearm during that class under the supervision of an instructor.
(3) Persons 14 to 16 years of age.
(a) Restrictions on hunting. No person 14 years of age or older but under 16 years of age may hunt unless he or she:
1. Is accompanied by his or her parent or guardian or by a person at least 18 years of age who is designated by the parent or guardian; or
2. Is issued a certificate of accomplishment that states that he or she successfully completed the course of instruction under the hunter education program or has a similar certificate, license, or other evidence satisfactory to the department indicating that he or she has successfully completed in another state, country, or province a hunter education course recognized by the department.
(b) Restrictions on possession or control of a firearm. No person 14 years of age or older but under 16 years of age may have in his or her possession or control any firearm unless he or she:
1. Is accompanied by his or her parent or guardian or by a person at least 18 years of age who is designated by the parent or guardian;
2. Is enrolled in the course of instruction under the hunter education program and is carrying the firearm in a case and unloaded to or from that class or is handling or operating the firearm during that class under the supervision of an instructor; or
3. Is issued a certificate of accomplishment that states that he or she successfully completed the course of instruction under the hunter education program or has a similar certificate, license, or other evidence satisfactory to the department indicating that he or she has successfully completed in another state, country, or province a hunter education course recognized by the department.
(4) Parental obligation. No parent or guardian of a child under 16 years of age may authorize or knowingly permit the child to violate this section.
(4m) Hunting mentorship program. The prohibition specified in sub. (1) (a) and the restrictions specified in subs. (1) (b) to (d), (2), and (3) do not apply to a person who is hunting with a mentor and who complies with the requirements specified under s. 29.592.
(5) Exception.
(a) Notwithstanding subs. (1) to (3), a person 12 years of age or older may possess or control a firearm and may hunt with a firearm, bow and arrow, or crossbow on land under the ownership of the person or the person's family if no license is required and if the firing of firearms is permitted on that land.
(b)
1. In this paragraph, “ target practice" includes trap shooting or a similar sport shooting activity regardless of whether the activity involves shooting at a fixed or a moving target.
2. The restrictions on the possession and control of a firearm under sub. (1) do not apply to a person using a firearm in target practice if he or she is accompanied by his or her parent or guardian or by a person at least 18 years of age who is designated by the parent or guardian.
(a) Prohibition on hunting. No person under 12 years of age may hunt with a firearm, bow and arrow, or crossbow.
(b) Restrictions on possession or control of a firearm. No person under 12 years of age may have in his or her possession or control any firearm unless he or she is enrolled in the course of instruction under the hunter education program and he or she is carrying the firearm in a case and unloaded to or from that class under the supervision of his or her parent or guardian, or by a person at least 18 years of age who is designated by the parent or guardian, or is handling or operating the firearm during that class under the supervision of an instructor.
(c) Restrictions on obtaining hunting approval. Except as provided under par. (d), no person under 12 years of age may obtain any approval authorizing hunting.
(d) Restrictions on validity of certificate of accomplishment. A person under 12 years of age may obtain a certificate of accomplishment if he or she complies with the requirements of s. 29.591 (4) but that certificate is not valid for the hunting of small game until that person becomes 12 years of age.
(2) Persons 12 to 14 years of age.
(a) Restrictions on hunting. No person 12 years of age or older but under 14 years of age may hunt unless he or she is accompanied by his or her parent or guardian, or by a person at least 18 years of age who is designated by the parent or guardian.
(b) Restrictions on possession or control of a firearm. No person 12 years of age or older but under 14 years of age may have in his or her possession or control any firearm unless he or she:
1. Is accompanied by his or her parent or guardian or by a person at least 18 years of age who is designated by the parent or guardian; or
2. Is enrolled in the course of instruction under the hunter education program and is carrying the firearm in a case and unloaded to or from that class or is handling or operating the firearm during that class under the supervision of an instructor.
(3) Persons 14 to 16 years of age.
(a) Restrictions on hunting. No person 14 years of age or older but under 16 years of age may hunt unless he or she:
1. Is accompanied by his or her parent or guardian or by a person at least 18 years of age who is designated by the parent or guardian; or
2. Is issued a certificate of accomplishment that states that he or she successfully completed the course of instruction under the hunter education program or has a similar certificate, license, or other evidence satisfactory to the department indicating that he or she has successfully completed in another state, country, or province a hunter education course recognized by the department.
(b) Restrictions on possession or control of a firearm. No person 14 years of age or older but under 16 years of age may have in his or her possession or control any firearm unless he or she:
1. Is accompanied by his or her parent or guardian or by a person at least 18 years of age who is designated by the parent or guardian;
2. Is enrolled in the course of instruction under the hunter education program and is carrying the firearm in a case and unloaded to or from that class or is handling or operating the firearm during that class under the supervision of an instructor; or
3. Is issued a certificate of accomplishment that states that he or she successfully completed the course of instruction under the hunter education program or has a similar certificate, license, or other evidence satisfactory to the department indicating that he or she has successfully completed in another state, country, or province a hunter education course recognized by the department.
(4) Parental obligation. No parent or guardian of a child under 16 years of age may authorize or knowingly permit the child to violate this section.
(4m) Hunting mentorship program. The prohibition specified in sub. (1) (a) and the restrictions specified in subs. (1) (b) to (d), (2), and (3) do not apply to a person who is hunting with a mentor and who complies with the requirements specified under s. 29.592.
(5) Exception.
(a) Notwithstanding subs. (1) to (3), a person 12 years of age or older may possess or control a firearm and may hunt with a firearm, bow and arrow, or crossbow on land under the ownership of the person or the person's family if no license is required and if the firing of firearms is permitted on that land.
(b)
1. In this paragraph, “ target practice" includes trap shooting or a similar sport shooting activity regardless of whether the activity involves shooting at a fixed or a moving target.
2. The restrictions on the possession and control of a firearm under sub. (1) do not apply to a person using a firearm in target practice if he or she is accompanied by his or her parent or guardian or by a person at least 18 years of age who is designated by the parent or guardian.
Source: https://law.justia.com/codes/wisconsin/2020/chapter-29/section-29-304/
29.593 Requirement for certificate of accomplishment to obtain hunting approval.
Quote:
(1)
(a) Except as provided under subs. (2), (2m) and (3), and s. 29.592 (1), no person born on or after January 1, 1973, may obtain any approval authorizing hunting unless the person is issued a certificate of accomplishment under s. 29.591.
(b) A certificate of accomplishment issued to a person for successfully completing the course under the bow hunter education program only authorizes the person to obtain a resident archer hunting license, a nonresident archer hunting license, a resident crossbow hunting license, or a nonresident crossbow hunting license.
(2) A person who has a certificate, license, or other evidence that is satisfactory to the department indicating that he or she has successfully completed in another state, country, or province a hunter education course recognized by the department may obtain an approval authorizing hunting.
(2m) A person who has a certificate, license, or other evidence that is satisfactory to the department indicating that he or she has successfully completed in another state, country, or province a bow hunter education course recognized by the department may obtain an archer hunting license or crossbow hunting license.
(3) A person who successfully completes basic training in the U.S. armed forces, reserves or national guard may obtain an approval authorizing hunting.
(4) A person who is subject to sub. (1) may prove compliance with sub. (1) when submitting an application for an approval authorizing hunting by presenting any of the following:
(a) His or her certificate of accomplishment issued under s. 29.591.
(b) An approval authorizing hunting that was issued to him or her under this chapter within 365 days before submitting the application.
(c) An approval authorizing hunting that was issued to him or her under this chapter for a hunting season that ended within 365 days before submitting the application.
(a) Except as provided under subs. (2), (2m) and (3), and s. 29.592 (1), no person born on or after January 1, 1973, may obtain any approval authorizing hunting unless the person is issued a certificate of accomplishment under s. 29.591.
(b) A certificate of accomplishment issued to a person for successfully completing the course under the bow hunter education program only authorizes the person to obtain a resident archer hunting license, a nonresident archer hunting license, a resident crossbow hunting license, or a nonresident crossbow hunting license.
(2) A person who has a certificate, license, or other evidence that is satisfactory to the department indicating that he or she has successfully completed in another state, country, or province a hunter education course recognized by the department may obtain an approval authorizing hunting.
(2m) A person who has a certificate, license, or other evidence that is satisfactory to the department indicating that he or she has successfully completed in another state, country, or province a bow hunter education course recognized by the department may obtain an archer hunting license or crossbow hunting license.
(3) A person who successfully completes basic training in the U.S. armed forces, reserves or national guard may obtain an approval authorizing hunting.
(4) A person who is subject to sub. (1) may prove compliance with sub. (1) when submitting an application for an approval authorizing hunting by presenting any of the following:
(a) His or her certificate of accomplishment issued under s. 29.591.
(b) An approval authorizing hunting that was issued to him or her under this chapter within 365 days before submitting the application.
(c) An approval authorizing hunting that was issued to him or her under this chapter for a hunting season that ended within 365 days before submitting the application.
Source: https://law.justia.com/codes/wisconsin/2020/chapter-29/section-29-593/
So, looking at the applicable law, unless the length of the rifle barrel was below the lawful minimum (which would result in additional charges), and that he was not under 16, it appears to come down to whether he held a hunting licence - And even here, the use of "and" rather than "or" could be read as meaning a person would need to not be in compliance with both, where being in compliance with either was sufficient to be exempt.
Looking back at what occurred when the defence requested the charge be dismissed:
Quote:
Circuit Judge Bruce Schroeder refused to dismiss the charge, though he said he would be willing to reconsider the issue. He indicated that he wanted to review the statutes to see if a conflict truly exists.
“I don’t feel comfortable making a ruling,” he said. “The basic concept is the rule ... has to be clear to ordinary people.”
“I don’t feel comfortable making a ruling,” he said. “The basic concept is the rule ... has to be clear to ordinary people.”
Source: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-kyle-rittenhouse-self-defense-hearing-20211005-3zfdczqfu5fvhl3vqbluzeqhma-story.html
It will be interesting to see if this charge is dismissed (either due to the exclusions written into the law, or the law being deemed "void for vagueness").
Of course, regardless of whether the charge stands or is dismissed, it doesn't affect the ability for Mr Rittenhouse to claim self defence...
31 Oct 2021, 2:47 am
Dox47 wrote:
Given that he was fleeing and trapped at the time of all 3 shootings, this is largely academic.
Everything can be argued.
If the *possession by a minor* charge stands, and invokes a new self-defense requirement of "exhausting all means of escape ...", then ...
The prosecutor may question why Rittenhouse didn't simply back up (make an effort to escape) when Rosenbaum reached for his rifle.
Especially, after say a subsequent shot of the four shots into Rosenbaum.
_________________
Then a hero comes along, with the strength to carry on, and you cast your fears aside, and you know you can survive.
Be the hero of your life.
31 Oct 2021, 3:13 am
TheRobotLives wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Given that he was fleeing and trapped at the time of all 3 shootings, this is largely academic.
Everything can be argued.
The prosecutor may question why Rittenhouse didn't simply back up (make an effort to escape) when Rosenbaum reached for his rifle.
That is likely to be the main point they will be pushing. I'd guess that the defence will be pointing to the fact that Mr Rosenbaum was gaining on Mr Rittenhouse when he was chasing him, along with the fact that he had been attempting to retreat for quite some distance prior to that point, so there was limited possibility of retreating further.
Edit: Or put another way, how long would you be willing to be pursued in such a situation before you felt that you needed to stop and defend yourself?
31 Oct 2021, 4:05 am
TheRobotLives wrote:
If the *possession by a minor* charge stands, and invokes a new self-defense requirement of "exhausting all means of escape ...", then ...
The prosecutor may question why Rittenhouse didn't simply back up (make an effort to escape) when Rosenbaum reached for his rifle.
Especially, after say a subsequent shot of the four shots into Rosenbaum.
As he was already retreating from Rosenbaum and was cornered between two cars at the time of the shooting, I don't think that's going to be a reach, and as I've previously state, 4 shots in a self defense shooting is not excessive or remarkable. You're doing something here I'd characterize as flailing, for some reason you really want Rittenhouse to be guilty, and so you keep reaching for justifications for your desire, even though the evidence available doesn't support your preferred conclusion. I'd suggest stepping back and looking at the full video again, it's not that complicated.
I'm going to mention again that I'm not a lawyer, but I do have some experience with self defense law and am plugged into quite a few experts on the field, and the word I'm hearing is that not only does Rittenhouse have a strong case here, but in fact it's so strong that absent the political dynamic it likely wouldn't have been brought at all.
_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson
31 Oct 2021, 4:37 am
Dox47 wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
If the *possession by a minor* charge stands, and invokes a new self-defense requirement of "exhausting all means of escape ...", then ...
The prosecutor may question why Rittenhouse didn't simply back up (make an effort to escape) when Rosenbaum reached for his rifle.
Especially, after say a subsequent shot of the four shots into Rosenbaum.
As he was already retreating from Rosenbaum and was cornered between two cars at the time of the shooting, I don't think that's going to be a reach, and as I've previously state, 4 shots in a self defense shooting is not excessive or remarkable. You're doing something here I'd characterize as flailing, for some reason you really want Rittenhouse to be guilty, and so you keep reaching for justifications for your desire, even though the evidence available doesn't support your preferred conclusion. I'd suggest stepping back and looking at the full video again, it's not that complicated.
I'm going to mention again that I'm not a lawyer, but I do have some experience with self defense law and am plugged into quite a few experts on the field, and the word I'm hearing is that not only does Rittenhouse have a strong case here, but in fact it's so strong that absent the political dynamic it likely wouldn't have been brought at all.
I just agree with Rosenbaum's finance.
She questioned how anyone can shoot an unarmed man four times, and call it self-defense.
I think that will weigh on the jury.
As the experts point out, Rittenhouse may be convicted simply because the jury will think why was he there, why was he carrying a gun around.
Legal experts see strong self-defense claim for Rittenhouse
https://apnews.com/article/wisconsin-sh ... a74d3f9649
“Everybody in that courtroom is going to be thinking he deserved what he got because he put himself in a hostile situation. … ‘What are you doing down there with a gun?’” said Bucher.
_________________
Then a hero comes along, with the strength to carry on, and you cast your fears aside, and you know you can survive.
Be the hero of your life.
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