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Leaked draft re: Roe v Wade

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MissChess
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06 May 2022, 12:10 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
While I understand all of the arguments in favor of abortion, but it's hard for a lot of society to get past the fact that it always results in ending someone's life.


I think most of society can handle it

Also I think my right to not have to risk death or potential health problems if I get pregnant is important . I realize pregnancy doesn't always result in death or long term health conditions but it can and its not a risk women should be forced to take against their will.


I'm not arguing with any of that. But still in every instance an abortion results in someone being put to death.


I think it's an exaggeration to insist a fetus is someone. They're someone like an acorn is an oak tree. They possess the potential to become someone should their development not be interfered with.


An acorn that's begun to sprout is a tree. You can call it a sapling, but it's a tree in its beginning stages. And I'm pretty sure if some mugger stabs a pregnant woman and kills the baby inside he can be charged with murder. Now I'm not trying to do a pro-life number. I'm just being realistic about it. It's the reality aspect of abortion that many people don't want to accept. But it exists nonetheless.

It doesn't matter. Nobody has the right to use my body against my will, even to save their own life or the life of another person.

You can't be forced to do so much as donate blood, let alone an organ, to save somebody else's life. Doctors can't even harvest your organs after you're dead unless you gave permission while you were still alive.

Denying women the right to an abortion means that women have less bodily autonomy than a corpse.


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06 May 2022, 12:23 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Of course it's medical. ^ Doctors swear an ethical oath. My query is pertaining to those ethics.


Small point of information that some will find interesting. The Hippocratic Oath used to contain an explicit promise to never to cause an abortion.


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06 May 2022, 12:24 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
Besides abortion, what else will be left to the states, and banned in some of them?


And what will be legalized? forced child marriage for 13 year old girls? Like they have in some theocratic countries or maybe the biblical idea of women having to marry their rapist if he gets her pregnant.

creepy times for sure.


I'm worried that sex outside of marriage, and sex not resulting in procreation (which the right considers to be sodomy), will be banned next.

Imagine you and your partner getting wild in bed, and all of a sudden, the cops are busting down the front door all because some "Karen" didn't like what you were doing.

Considering that cops are already terrorists as it is, I would be furious.


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06 May 2022, 12:34 pm

MissChess wrote:
It doesn't matter. Nobody has the right to use my body against my will, even to save their own life or the life of another person.

You can't be forced to do so much as donate blood, let alone an organ, to save somebody else's life. Doctors can't even harvest your organs after you're dead unless you gave permission while you were still alive.

Denying women the right to an abortion means that women have less bodily autonomy than a corpse.


^this. all the debates in the world as to when it's considered alive won't convince me that I should be forced to carry an unwanted ebryo/fetus to term regardless of how alive it is. Because it's my body anything wanting to use my body for any reason needs permission if I don't give permission than tough luck even if the thing needs my body or part of my body to survive and it will die if I say no.


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06 May 2022, 12:42 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
Besides abortion, what else will be left to the states, and banned in some of them?


And what will be legalized? forced child marriage for 13 year old girls? Like they have in some theocratic countries or maybe the biblical idea of women having to marry their rapist if he gets her pregnant.

creepy times for sure.


I'm worried that sex outside of marriage, and sex not resulting in procreation (which the right considers to be sodomy), will be banned next.

Imagine you and your partner getting wild in bed, and all of a sudden, the cops are busting down the front door all because some "Karen" didn't like what you were doing.

Considering that cops are already terrorists as it is, I would be furious.


That would be stupid lol me and my boyfriend can't get married because we need my SSI and they may cut me off it due to his income which is not enough to support both of us if we do, even though we consider ourselves basically married. So it would be illegal for us to have sex.

And come on I really only got into sex last year, I didn't have that happen just so some old white hair can tell me I'm not allowed to have sex because I can't get married. :twisted: no offense meant to old white hairs who understand the right to your own body...


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06 May 2022, 6:38 pm

Fornication should never be illegal. If anything, it should be mandatory.

Let's see how the Evangelicals feel when it's them whose bodies are controlled.


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06 May 2022, 7:29 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
And I'm pretty sure if some mugger stabs a pregnant woman and kills the baby inside he can be charged with murder.


Almost like anti-choicers fought for that as a wedge issue so that "logic" can be applied. :wink:

You're just peddling anti-choicer talking points while attempting to distance yourself from them.

Further, the equivalent to a sapling is an infant, not a fetus.


Hard to say if they have an agenda to prevent choice or if they see it as preventing human deaths.



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06 May 2022, 7:54 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
And I'm pretty sure if some mugger stabs a pregnant woman and kills the baby inside he can be charged with murder.


Almost like anti-choicers fought for that as a wedge issue so that "logic" can be applied. :wink:

You're just peddling anti-choicer talking points while attempting to distance yourself from them.

Further, the equivalent to a sapling is an infant, not a fetus.


Hard to say if they have an agenda to prevent choice or if they see it as preventing human deaths.


Even if they see it as preventing human deaths, they are still putting something that is dependent on a body to develop above the already fully alive conscious person acting as its host. In reality banning abortion will cause more deaths because of all the complications that can happen in pregnancy. So sure maybe they are trying to save lives..but in doing so they are dismissing the lives of people that get pregnant. Like once pregnant it's like they think the end all goal should be ensuring that baby comes out regardless of the life of the woman pregnant with it.


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06 May 2022, 9:16 pm

MissChess wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
An acorn that's begun to sprout is a tree. You can call it a sapling, but it's a tree in its beginning stages. And I'm pretty sure if some mugger stabs a pregnant woman and kills the baby inside he can be charged with murder. Now I'm not trying to do a pro-life number. I'm just being realistic about it. It's the reality aspect of abortion that many people don't want to accept. But it exists nonetheless.

It doesn't matter. Nobody has the right to use my body against my will, even to save their own life or the life of another person.

You can't be forced to do so much as donate blood, let alone an organ, to save somebody else's life. Doctors can't even harvest your organs after you're dead unless you gave permission while you were still alive.

Denying women the right to an abortion means that women have less bodily autonomy than a corpse.


The examples you're giving are forced medical procedures. There's no legislation for forced medical procedures in this case.



Last edited by Matrix Glitch on 06 May 2022, 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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06 May 2022, 9:26 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
And I'm pretty sure if some mugger stabs a pregnant woman and kills the baby inside he can be charged with murder.


Almost like anti-choicers fought for that as a wedge issue so that "logic" can be applied. :wink:

You're just peddling anti-choicer talking points while attempting to distance yourself from them.

Further, the equivalent to a sapling is an infant, not a fetus.


Hard to say if they have an agenda to prevent choice or if they see it as preventing human deaths.


Even if they see it as preventing human deaths, they are still putting something that is dependent on a body to develop above the already fully alive conscious person acting as its host. In reality banning abortion will cause more deaths because of all the complications that can happen in pregnancy. So sure maybe they are trying to save lives..but in doing so they are dismissing the lives of people that get pregnant. Like once pregnant it's like they think the end all goal should be ensuring that baby comes out regardless of the life of the woman pregnant with it.


I think the problem from the pro-life point of view is that in most cases abortions aren't performed to save someone's life, but rather to end someone's life.



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06 May 2022, 9:32 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
Fornication should never be illegal. If anything, it should be mandatory.

Let's see how the Evangelicals feel when it's them whose bodies are controlled.


On one hand you're speaking against control, and on the other hand you're saying sexual intercourse should be mandatory.



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06 May 2022, 10:28 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
MissChess wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
An acorn that's begun to sprout is a tree. You can call it a sapling, but it's a tree in its beginning stages. And I'm pretty sure if some mugger stabs a pregnant woman and kills the baby inside he can be charged with murder. Now I'm not trying to do a pro-life number. I'm just being realistic about it. It's the reality aspect of abortion that many people don't want to accept. But it exists nonetheless.

It doesn't matter. Nobody has the right to use my body against my will, even to save their own life or the life of another person.

You can't be forced to do so much as donate blood, let alone an organ, to save somebody else's life. Doctors can't even harvest your organs after you're dead unless you gave permission while you were still alive.

Denying women the right to an abortion means that women have less bodily autonomy than a corpse.


The examples you're giving are forced medical procedures. There's no legislation for forced medical procedures in this case.

You're very adept at moving the goalposts, and at disregarding the rights of the fully-formed human being involved in favor of the preservation of the fetus - which is not, regardless of how many times you phrase it that way - "someone".


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06 May 2022, 10:39 pm

I want to make it clear what I was talking about regarding godliness. True godliness as I understand it, is transcending from the physical to the spiritual. The only attention to the physical self would be limited to the bare necessities needed for physical survival. And that basically as an afterthought. Therefore there would be no interest in identifying as anything other than being a utensil of God.



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06 May 2022, 10:55 pm

MissChess wrote:
You're very adept at moving the goalposts, and at disregarding the rights of the fully-formed human being involved in favor of the preservation of the fetus - which is not, regardless of how many times you phrase it that way - "someone".


I moved the goal post from what's inapplicable to what is. Outlawing abortion would not equate to forced medical procedures. It's the removal of a medical procedure, rather than the implementation of one. Are you saying that if someone had stabbed you while you were in your mother's womb, that wouldn't have ended your life? Or at that time you didn't have the right to stay alive?



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07 May 2022, 2:52 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
Besides abortion, what else will be left to the states, and banned in some of them?

not just the states, the anti-abortionists are pushing for a constitutional convention to ban lots of other things including being gay, being poor/homeless, voting for non-wealthy types, et al.



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07 May 2022, 3:03 am

auntblabby wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
Besides abortion, what else will be left to the states, and banned in some of them?

not just the states, the anti-abortionists are pushing for a constitutional convention to ban lots of other things including being gay, being poor/homeless, voting for non-wealthy types, et al.


That's fighting. Could you cite the articles or legislation you came across regarding those?