New Children's book causes Quite a Stir

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lostonearth35
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10 May 2022, 11:04 pm

It doesn't matter if I'm a left-handed woman diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome, who use to believe I was an ally for others who have been seen as inferior for being different, including victims of racism. But no, I am a horrible racist because I am white, and I have no real identity other than that of an oppressor.

It's not surprising really, I was born in a community where most people were of Scottish and other European heritage and I very rarely saw poc in real life. My dad sometimes made racist jokes that I did not understand. I sometimes heard kids at school use the N word. When I asked my mother about it she told me the word was really offensive to black people so I decided right then and there to never use the word. But I'm still nothing but a disgusting white slug. A ghost person.



kraftiekortie
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10 May 2022, 11:05 pm

The strike was why my parents put me in a private school.

I grew up on news of Ocean Hill-Brownsville.



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10 May 2022, 11:10 pm

magz wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
This book might be too much for a 3 year old.

we (I?) would like them to fade and become history.
.

The whole point is to stop being naive and become "woke" about the intersection of race and privilege. Got to start it early when minds are most impressionable. Sucks, but that is where we are at.

It is not Critical Race Theory, but it is difficult to imagine this without it.


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10 May 2022, 11:23 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
The strike was why my parents put me in a private school.

I grew up on news of Ocean Hill-Brownsville.

My father was a striking teacher. It did so much damage it is still hard to talk about but I somehow must because the merit vs merit is a racist construct talked about in the linked article is central to the woke/CRT controversy today 54 years later.

The Wikipedia article is a good primer and captures the bitterness. There are many other good references out there.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 10 May 2022, 11:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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10 May 2022, 11:27 pm

cyberdad wrote:
I think what the author is trying to say is that white Americans created the concept of the "white race" around the 1690s to justify treatment of black slaves - it was an artificial construct with no biological basis. Prior to this people never used the concept of skin colour to classify humanity into black/white. They simply identified themselves by nationality.

Alvarus de Semedo:The history of that great and renowned monarchy of China,
Writing based on travels in China between 1613-1636. That is, the eve of the demise of the Ming Dynasty.
Quoted from the Chinese translation.
Quote:
"Chinese people are white like us Europeans, but in the tropics near Guangzhou, their complexion is slightly brown, especially the islanders near the mainland. Except for the Chinese in Guangdong Province, which are somewhat brownish, the people in the rest of the provinces are all white, no different from the whiteness of Europeans, and the further north you go, the whiter the Chinese are.


Chinese started calling ourselves "yellow race" after being introduced to the concept of "white race".

But now a little part of Chinese think that East Asians are actually "white-yellow" and Europeans are "white-pink". And thus question the European monopoly on the definition of "white".
(there is a high degree of overlap between this group and the nationalists. I usually disapprove of them.)


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10 May 2022, 11:59 pm

I can see a child being confused about this book and will ask why is being white better, what is wrong with being black. As a kid my mom explained racism to me as it being stupid and that people didn't understand so they feared what was different than them and made assumptions. I also asked her what was wrong with being black and she said nothing was wrong with it, that is hoqw stupid racism is, it's like hating you for having blonde hair and blue eyes.

This is how white people will be explaining racism to a child when they don't understand it themselves and why it even existed. Most people don't want to look for reasons behind things because they see it as excusing it and being an apologist but it is not true. We need to understand why it exists and how it started to fight it. Most people will agree racism is horrible and they don't want to look for reasons to justify it and excuse it so therefore they will not understand why it even existed in society. They won't understand that laws and work policies are built around white supremacy, same as dress codes when it comes to hair. Refusing to learn about it is racist itself.


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magz
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11 May 2022, 1:41 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
Delving into the history of injustices and considering the concept of potential blame seems like a topic for a much older group. The message for young kids might include understanding that people have often been treated unfairly because of skin color, and that doing so is considered wrong, since people are people. Having everyone be different enriches life for all of us.
That's how I see it, too.
Older kids should absolutely learn about all the horrors of native genocide, slavery, Jim Crow laws, lynches... and that while a lot have gone the right direction since then, there's still a lot to be done.
But a 3yo is on a level of development that needs it put in very simple terms. People can have different skin colors and it's normal. Some are treated unfairly because of their skin color and it's wrong.
And a chance to play together since very early age, so interpersonal relationships develop before prejudice does.


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magz
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11 May 2022, 2:05 am

old_comedywriter wrote:
A lot hinges on what is on page 2. And let's not forget the rest of the book.

I remember when I first experienced racism in school, on the racist end of it. I was ahead of my class i reading (in first grade!) when the teacher started a chapter about the Cruz family, whose name I promptly mispronounced. Then they had tortillas for dinner, which I also mispronounced. I suddenly went from head of the class to idiot who couldn't pronounce words properly. At age five, I started hating Hispanics for their differences and what it had done to me, when there was absolutely NO intervention from a teacher to tell me "It's OK. They have a different culture, different foods, and you're not an idiot for not knowing these things."

We need a better way of teaching kids that differences are OK, and learning is the key to acceptance.

And with that, we'll probably be mourning the demise of another thread...

That is a situation relatable to what may have happened here - and the teacher should have indeed intervened. Just correct you on the pronountiation of the words that were new to you, I think, and say something like "that's okay, these words come from Spanish and in Spanish you read a bit differently". No big deal. I think I'd ask the class if someone could tell us what tortillas are and then encourage some discussion on cuisine from all over the world.
The teacher not intervening made it a deal big enough for you to still remember it. I wonder why she didn't.


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11 May 2022, 4:01 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
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Jewish people in American self-identify as mainstream white (what else do they self-identify as?).

I doubt that these Jews identify as white.

Beyond that from what I have been told prior to the mid-1960s the idea that Jews were white would seem laughable. They were not allowed in country clubs, there were quotas against them in clubs and jobs, Henry Ford wrote an antisemitic book, Popular radio personality Father Conklin preached against them, and American hero Charles Lindbergh was the face of the original "America First" movement.

In 1968 a teacher's strike of all things changed this and a lot of things. Oversimplifying things it pitted the mostly Jewish teachers union's for the desire for union and professional protections against a black community's desire for local control. Things got very heated. A few years earlier the Jews with the holocaust just in the rearview mirror and the blacks in the midst of the civil rights movement were natural allies. No more. The Jews and Catholics cultural and political rivals prior to the strike united against the blacks and after that Jews were considered and thought of themselves as a white ethnic group.

For a more detailed look at this event
The Ocean Hill-Brownsville Crisis: New York’s Antigone by Jerold E. Podair history, Lawrence University 2001


Yeah I excluded african-American, Ethiopian falasha, Indian Jews, Chinese Jews etc etc.....I also mentioned that a few generations ago virtually anyone who wasn't Anglo/Protestant wasn't considered white. However in 2022 the line is clearly demarcated.



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11 May 2022, 4:18 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
Chinese started calling ourselves "yellow race" after being introduced to the concept of "white race".

But now a little part of Chinese think that East Asians are actually "white-yellow" and Europeans are "white-pink". And thus question the European monopoly on the definition of "white".
(there is a high degree of overlap between this group and the nationalists. I usually disapprove of them.)


Yes this is the same trap Europeans fall for in subconsciously placing themselves in a heirarchy with them on top,

Th author of this children's book has the right idea, providing a tool to intervene when children are old enough to understand differences they see in the playground (this is no different to the idea that early intervention in children with autism mean they grow up able to assimilate with NTs).



lostonearth35
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12 May 2022, 11:01 am

The book doesn't say anything about non-white people being racist. But that's okay, because it's only when they're hating on other non-white people that it's racist. Ghost people are not a race. Not even human, really. We suck.



cyberdad
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12 May 2022, 4:59 pm

lostonearth35 wrote:
The book doesn't say anything about non-white people being racist. But that's okay, because it's only when they're hating on other non-white people that it's racist. Ghost people are not a race. Not even human, really. We suck.


I think its possible when there is a power differential involved. For example in Singapore the majority Chinese are definitely racist against Indians (no arguments there).



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12 May 2022, 5:32 pm

cyberdad wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
cyberdad wrote:

2. Her being jewish is irrelevant. Jewish people in American self-identify as mainstream white (what else do they self-identify as?). I do hope you aren't anti-semitic?



I don't consider the above to be an accurate statement, although it does vary.


Self-identification. Please show me one example of a non-African or non-Asian Jewish American who self-identifies as black or asiatic in the United States. I suspect the number is zero.


The options aren't limited to black, white and Asian.


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12 May 2022, 5:40 pm

lostonearth35 wrote:
It doesn't matter if I'm a left-handed woman diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome, who use to believe I was an ally for others who have been seen as inferior for being different, including victims of racism. But no, I am a horrible racist because I am white, and I have no real identity other than that of an oppressor.

It's not surprising really, I was born in a community where most people were of Scottish and other European heritage and I very rarely saw poc in real life. My dad sometimes made racist jokes that I did not understand. I sometimes heard kids at school use the N word. When I asked my mother about it she told me the word was really offensive to black people so I decided right then and there to never use the word. But I'm still nothing but a disgusting white slug. A ghost person.


I don't think the point is to see ourselves as oppressors just because we are white, but to recognize that there are experiences we've had that have benefited us, and negative experiences we've escaped, simply because of our heritage and color of our skin. Our ancestors laid groundwork that has benefited us, and that groundwork wasn't always fair or pretty. Therefore, trying to transfer our own expectations onto someone else is unfair and unrealistic.

A simple example is the benefit of property and business ownership. Just growing up in a house your family owned creates a financial head start, which is a benefit that has been decidedly more difficult for minorities to access.


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12 May 2022, 6:44 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
cyberdad wrote:

2. Her being jewish is irrelevant. Jewish people in American self-identify as mainstream white (what else do they self-identify as?). I do hope you aren't anti-semitic?



I don't consider the above to be an accurate statement, although it does vary.


Self-identification. Please show me one example of a non-African or non-Asian Jewish American who self-identifies as black or asiatic in the United States. I suspect the number is zero.


The options aren't limited to black, white and Asian.


Which avoids the obvious. According Pew research the vast majority of American Jews self-identify as white (something like 95%) so we are debating about a handful of exceptions.



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12 May 2022, 9:24 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Most Ashkenazi Jews probably think of themselves as "white," though certainly not in the sense that "white" is somehow an "identity." They don't feel a strong sense of "whiteness." Some have a strong sense of being Jews, though.

A few generations ago, there were some people who would say that Ashkenazi Jews weren't "white."

There is even less of a sense of "whiteness" amongst Sephardic Jews.

Obviously, there is no sense of "whiteness" amongst Ethiopian Jews.

Certainly, I feel absolutely no sense of "white identity" whatsoever. I have a slight sense of being a Jew----though I certainly don't think about it all the time. If it happens that I have African ancestry somewhere, I wouldn't get all worked up about it. Really, in actuality, ultimately, we ALL have African ancestry.


Even on North Sentinal Island?


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