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magz
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14 May 2022, 2:55 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Did anyone expect otherwise? Oh yes…. the Democrat americans :facepalm:.
So...what is this better idea you obviously have for what any American POTUS should have done?

Stay in Afganistan forever?

Or what?
Maybe. That token force of 3,000 had things stabilized for a while.
And imagine now some hostile country arms the Taliban and sends them to fight those "token forces"?

Token forces were enough as long as things were otherwise paeceful. With the geopolitical swing of this year, they could have easily got trapped in a proxy war. Practically another Vietnam.

Sorry to tell it but even for Afghans, letting the Taliban back in is a lesser evil than having a proxy war there. It might have looked different if they wanted to fight back... but from what I know, Afghan army officers just sold the American weapons to the Taliban and fled with the money.


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Pepe
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14 May 2022, 6:38 am

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
magz wrote:
Step by step, they go back to what their previous rule looked like :(


Thanks to Biden. ;)


Since we are flying political flags (even humour), I can't imagine the Kurds send christmas cards to Trump either
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-vete ... nt-2019-11


Who doesn't know Trump stabbed the Kurds in the back? :roll:

"Read my lips."
I'm not a Trump fan. 8)


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And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
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Pepe
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14 May 2022, 6:48 am

cyberdad wrote:
magz wrote:
Step by step, they go back to what their previous rule looked like :(


Countries like Iran and Afghanistan. Iraq, Pakistan and Somalia have had their internal affairs interfered with by the USA, If Ukraine has the right to determine their affairs without Russian interference then why not Afghanistan?

The Afghan society seems to gravitate toward military strongmen because that is the culture the majority of the population seem inclined toward, The British, Russians and now the Americans have all failed because Afghanistan want to determine their own affairs and not be transformed into a clone of some foreign power that is alien to their culture.


You cannot be serious. 8O


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Pepe
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14 May 2022, 6:51 am

magz wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Did anyone expect otherwise? Oh yes…. the Democrat americans :facepalm:.
So...what is this better idea you obviously have for what any American POTUS should have done?

Stay in Afganistan forever?

Or what?
Maybe. That token force of 3,000 had things stabilized for a while.
And imagine now some hostile country arms the Taliban and sends them to fight those "token forces"?

Token forces were enough as long as things were otherwise paeceful. With the geopolitical swing of this year, they could have easily got trapped in a proxy war. Practically another Vietnam.

Sorry to tell it but even for Afghans, letting the Taliban back in is a lesser evil than having a proxy war there. It might have looked different if they wanted to fight back... but from what I know, Afghan army officers just sold the American weapons to the Taliban and fled with the money.


The Afghan army collapsed because the Amuurian troops were being removed.
No morale. 8)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


magz
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14 May 2022, 7:07 am

Pepe wrote:
The Afghan army collapsed because the Amuurian troops were being removed.
No morale. 8)
Yes, no morale.
The unconfirmed gossip I received was even worse - when NATO troops were leaving, trucks were already waiting to get the equipment they left.
From what I know about Central Asia, I find it possible.


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naturalplastic
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14 May 2022, 9:22 am

American partisanship doesnt really enter in to it.

We all seem to agree that....

There were just no good options.

Another wiser POTUS than either Biden or Trump (couldve come from either party) might have handled it better. But at best this better POTUS would have conducted a slightly slower and slightly less disasterous disaster than it was. OR, this hypothical POTUS would have kept a small force there ...forever. Or at least -would have kicked the can down the road to the next POTUS to deal with (or to kick down the road to the next potus after that). Also an unpopular option.



cyberdad
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14 May 2022, 9:24 pm

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
magz wrote:
Step by step, they go back to what their previous rule looked like :(


Countries like Iran and Afghanistan. Iraq, Pakistan and Somalia have had their internal affairs interfered with by the USA, If Ukraine has the right to determine their affairs without Russian interference then why not Afghanistan?

The Afghan society seems to gravitate toward military strongmen because that is the culture the majority of the population seem inclined toward, The British, Russians and now the Americans have all failed because Afghanistan want to determine their own affairs and not be transformed into a clone of some foreign power that is alien to their culture.


You cannot be serious. 8O


If you look at the situation in those countries I mentioned, they are now being left to their own devices.
Somalia- run by warlords
Iran - run by Mullahs previously corrupt Shah
Afghanistan - run by Taliban previously run by tribal warlords
Iraq - run by ISIS, previously Sadam Hussein
Pakistan - run my military Junta
Libya - run by military junta previously Gaddafi

No amount of money pouring in as aid or military supplies is going to change the above because there is an acceptance of strongmen in these cultures



naturalplastic
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15 May 2022, 2:15 am

Right conclusion (that there isnt much outsiders can do to turn some countries into democracies), but for the wrong reasons.

Iraq is not "run by ISIS". Its run by the same government the US installed there to replace Saddam when W invaded 20 years ago . A government that actually has elections and does more or less function as a republic. ISIS attacked Iraq from out of Syria in the northwest, seized some land, and a city, but was beaten, and was pretty much destroyed. I guess you didnt read the papers in the last ten years. The Iraqi government is the rare entity in the middle east that is allies with BOTH Iran and the USA.

Afghanistan is a tribal society of local cheifdoms that has no real history of any kind of central government. Somalia is much the same.

Iran had a democratically elected president in the Fifties, but he was overthrown by the CIA, and they replaced him with the Shah. Iranians do tend to have leaders "that inspire fear". But they also have the machinery of democracy set up. So Iran could go either way. A large part of the population wants to get rid of the theocracy and have real democracy. But..youre right...if we outsiders meddle it could backfire.

Iran is the only one on your list that is a real country with a single core ethnic group that has existed as actual kingdom for centuries, and millenia.



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15 May 2022, 2:20 am

Poor kids, even though covid slowed down they can't even get a date night. I mean I figure most of them just go back home when presented with the stupid idea they cannot dine as a couple. But still that is messed up.


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cyberdad
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15 May 2022, 4:59 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Right conclusion (that there isnt much outsiders can do to turn some countries into democracies), but for the wrong reasons.

Iraq is not "run by ISIS". Its run by the same government the US installed there to replace Saddam when W invaded 20 years ago . A government that actually has elections and does more or less function as a republic. ISIS attacked Iraq from out of Syria in the northwest, seized some land, and a city, but was beaten, and was pretty much destroyed. I guess you didnt read the papers in the last ten years. The Iraqi government is the rare entity in the middle east that is allies with BOTH Iran and the USA.

Afghanistan is a tribal society of local cheifdoms that has no real history of any kind of central government. Somalia is much the same.

Iran had a democratically elected president in the Fifties, but he was overthrown by the CIA, and they replaced him with the Shah. Iranians do tend to have leaders "that inspire fear". But they also have the machinery of democracy set up. So Iran could go either way. A large part of the population wants to get rid of the theocracy and have real democracy. But..youre right...if we outsiders meddle it could backfire.

Iran is the only one on your list that is a real country with a single core ethnic group that has existed as actual kingdom for centuries, and millenia.


I don't disagree with you, but my point is no amount of western aid or intervention has made an iota of difference, Afghanistan in particular chooses to remain a medieval society. Tribalism is stronger than the allure of western culture. Tribalism ruled all these societies long before islam and women in Afghanistan were made to wear "Purdah" before Mohammed was born.



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15 May 2022, 10:02 am

Anybody else think that the Americans giving up in Afghanistan and Russia invading Ukraine a few months later is not a coincidence?


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15 May 2022, 10:20 am

Whatever the answer, occupation by foreign imperialist troops obviously is not it.

Leave them alone -- Protect our own.



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15 May 2022, 10:38 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Anybody else think that the Americans giving up in Afghanistan and Russia invading Ukraine a few months later is not a coincidence?


That was implied in some news stories I read and heard a couple of months ago. Putin and Xi had a summit soon after we pulled out, and they renewed their friendship vows, AND made a joint statement to "back up each other's territorial claims".

The two saw western resolve falter, so in response it looked like they had agreed that "if I back you up in taking Ukraine, I will back you up taking Taiwan".



magz
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15 May 2022, 10:39 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Anybody else think that the Americans giving up in Afghanistan and Russia invading Ukraine a few months later is not a coincidence?
My thoughts go this way - that American intelligence expected it would get hot in Europe, so they got rid of a potential inflammatory point that could engage their army well beyond "token forces" in the new situation.
It's possible Russians had plans for arming the Taliban and sending them out before attacking Ukraine - just like they started making trouble on Belarussian-Lithuanian and Belarussian-Polish border.
If Americans withdrew now, it would likely be even more disastrous.


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15 May 2022, 4:31 pm

magz wrote:
It's possible Russians had plans for arming the Taliban and sending them out before attacking Ukraine - just like they started making trouble on Belarussian-Lithuanian and Belarussian-Polish border.
If Americans withdrew now, it would likely be even more disastrous.


Some irony in this comment given the Taliban wouldn't have existed at all if not for the US and their friends in Pakistan
https://thediplomat.com/2018/06/how-the ... e-taliban/



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15 May 2022, 4:44 pm

Are there any history majors here??? Afghanistan has a long history. Alexander the Great failed to conquer and rule it. Genghis Khan also failed. Among more recent efforts, the Brits failed and the Russians failed. If ever there was a project doomed from the start, it was that. They just continue to provide a major portion of heroin, etc. to the world and nothing will change if a new guys from another country, wearing funny clothes, shows up to be ruler. Any serious student who had World History 1A in college could have told you that.