F.B.I. Raids Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate

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Fnord
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09 Aug 2022, 12:36 pm

Cornflake wrote:
Fnord, I think VegetableMan was referring to "Presidents" as including ex-presidents.  Someone doesn't have to be a sitting president in order to escape justice - that's just as easily managed by ex-presidents too.
I do not know about that, because I personally know people who still hold onto the myth that the 2019 election was allegedly stolen, and the Mr. Trump is allegedly the "real" President of the United States.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Aug 2022, 12:45 pm

It is certain they are going after Trump more than they went after any other President, or ex-President.

Quite frankly, he deserves it. Because his ascendency was, and is, a threat to democracy.



Dox47
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09 Aug 2022, 2:39 pm

As I said in the other thread, I feel very conflicted about these things due to a belief that no one is above the law, but also the awareness of how bad it looks when a president prosecutes his political opponent, especially the likely front runner in the upcoming election. In this case, I think the classified materials were a fishing expedition, they're not going to raid a former president for something so minor.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Aug 2022, 2:47 pm

I probably wouldn't advocate pursuing most ex-Presidents the way they're pursuing Trump----but Trump is a special case.

He didn't want to relinquish power when it was constitutionally mandated that he do so. He sought to overthrow the Constitution. We just can't let this go.



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09 Aug 2022, 2:53 pm

Raptor wrote:
Let’s say y’all’s wet dream comes true and your boogie man gets sent up the river.

1. He becomes a martyr and unites the right, but it’ll be a lot more than just tiki torches and Dodge Challengers.

2. Makes a DeSantis victory more certain. You really really won’t like DeSantis.

Trump can run as a martyr candidate from behind bars. Nothing in the constitution prohibits it. Eugene Debs did just that in 1920 after he was convicted of sedition.

We and that includes yours truly are assuming the Trumpers are moving from Trump to DeSantis based on a few polls and the belief that DeSantis would be better at enacting the MAGA agenda. But it is an assumption that Trumps base is thinking like us and it is over a year and a half until the primaries begin.


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09 Aug 2022, 3:11 pm

Dox47 wrote:
As I said in the other thread, I feel very conflicted about these things due to a belief that no one is above the law, but also the awareness of how bad it looks when a president prosecutes his political opponent, especially the likely front runner in the upcoming election. In this case, I think the classified materials were a fishing expedition, they're not going to raid a former president for something so minor.

I agree that it is definitely a lesser of two nightmares decision. Because the insurrection and all that led up to it made America look like a banana republic does not make the justice department investigating a political rival of the President not make America not look like a banana republic. Whatever the merit of the investigation does not conflate with the bad optics.

The main but not the only person responsible for putting us in such a horrible bind is Trump because he committed crimes or acts convincingly like a person who has committed crimes.


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09 Aug 2022, 4:15 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
As I said in the other thread, I feel very conflicted about these things due to a belief that no one is above the law, but also the awareness of how bad it looks when a president prosecutes his political opponent, especially the likely front runner in the upcoming election. In this case, I think the classified materials were a fishing expedition, they're not going to raid a former president for something so minor.

I agree that it is definitely a lesser of two nightmares decision. Because the insurrection and all that led up to it made America look like a banana republic does not make the justice department investigating a political rival of the President not make America not look like a banana republic. Whatever the merit of the investigation does not conflate with the bad optics.

The main but not the only person responsible for putting us in such a horrible bind is Trump because he committed crimes or acts convincingly like a person who has committed crimes.


In all seriousness, I think the notion of Trump as Biden's political rival in 2024 is looking less and less likely, even before the FBI raid.


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09 Aug 2022, 4:29 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Let’s say y’all’s wet dream comes true and your boogie man gets sent up the river.

1. He becomes a martyr and unites the right, but it’ll be a lot more than just tiki torches and Dodge Challengers.

2. Makes a DeSantis victory more certain. You really really won’t like DeSantis.

Trump can run as a martyr candidate from behind bars. Nothing in the constitution prohibits it. Eugene Debs did just that in 1920 after he was convicted of sedition.

We and that includes yours truly are assuming the Trumpers are moving from Trump to DeSantis based on a few polls and the belief that DeSantis would be better at enacting the MAGA agenda. But it is an assumption that Trumps base is thinking like us and it is over a year and a half until the primaries begin.


DeSantis is more of a true conservative than Trump and very smart.
I have no qualms about having DeSantis as president - OR - Trump.....again.


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09 Aug 2022, 4:35 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
At this point, I believe only hard-core Trumpites would vote for Trump in 2024.

Some republicans might not want to but they'll take him over Biden, even grudgingly.


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09 Aug 2022, 5:55 pm

Raptor wrote:
Some republicans might not want to but they'll take him over Biden, even grudgingly.


I'm not even a Republican and I'd take him over Biden, for the lulz is nothing else.


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09 Aug 2022, 5:58 pm

Probably not as many as 74 million, though.

Anyway....it's still not a forgone conclusion that Biden will run in 2024.



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09 Aug 2022, 6:52 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
It is certain they are going after Trump more than they went after any other President, or ex-President.

Quite frankly, he deserves it. Because his ascendency was, and is, a threat to democracy.


I don't know that we've ever had a president before so unwilling and unable to follow the legal restrictions on governance. I have the impression he never fully grasped how much more legal accountability there is public office than in private or even publicly held business. In order to prosecute, you have to have clear evidence of a broken law. Hem and haw on past presidents all we want, but none of their actions ever got anywhere close to being provably criminal beyond a reasonable doubt. Trump was good at couching his words and avoiding criminality that way, but I think he never fully understood the record laws and may well have simply slipped up there.


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09 Aug 2022, 6:56 pm

Raptor wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
At this point, I believe only hard-core Trumpites would vote for Trump in 2024.

Some republicans might not want to but they'll take him over Biden, even grudgingly.


It varies. I honestly believe we've seen enough evidence to understand that Trump is a real threat to our constitution and rule of law. I'm hearing the same from some tried and true Republicans, including many who voted for Trump in 2016 and some who even voted for him again in 2020. They can hold their noses over policy they hate, but they can't hold their noses over an ascent into autocracy or blatant disregard for the oath of office.

That said, it isn't impossible that Democrats would post a candidate seen as a similar threat. It is the job of Democrat primary voters to keep that from happening.


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09 Aug 2022, 7:22 pm

Not pointing at any one individual here since there have been many to do so, but a cousin of mine said on his facebook that listening to liberals preach about the constitution is like listening to Satan recite holy scripture.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Aug 2022, 7:26 pm

Oh well....I guess he doesn't like liberals, then.

C'est la vie----you just can't please the world!



kraftiekortie
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09 Aug 2022, 7:47 pm

Trump is the type who believes the Constitution is a nuisance.

He would rather rule by decree.