Aretha Franklin song ‘Natural Woman’ deemed offensive

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I've never shouted or screamed at you.

Sex and gender aren't the same thing. Maybe that's where you are finding it confusing. Essentially, sex refers to your anatomical body. Gender (and specifically gender identity) refers to your brain and how it feels or functions regarding self-concept. Transgender means your gender (brain) feels different from your sex (organs). It might feel totally opposite (male to female, female to male), or it might not feel like it has any gender as compared to the person's sex organs. Sometimes the brain feels like it moves back and forth between genders (gender fluid). Sometimes it feels like a totally unique, unnamed gender.

You said "sometimes your sex is important". I assume you mean a person should disclose their anatomical sex to potential partners if the partner doesn't seem to know. That's another topic and I think there's actually a thread on it somewhere.

I think you meant to say a person should disclose their gender (brain) identity to partners. I can only speak for myself in terms of NB because everyone is different (and natural), but in my case I'm heterosexual and only interested in dating or sleeping with men even though yes, I notice some hot women from time to time. My sexual orientation of being hetero matches with my body parts. Also, I look and dress like a woman. I'm not androgynous and no one would have difficulty understanding that I'm female (assumption: hetero) by looking at me. I could go through life with no one knowing how I feel on the inside. Many people don't know.

I'm not sure what you mean about NB people needing different dating advice. Maybe some do because we're all different but do you mean regarding sexual activity, or do you mean explaining NB to their partner? For me nothing is different in terms of sexual activity or the types of advice I might need. Being NB doesn't necessarily mean the person is bisexual or anything other than hetero. Sexual orientation / sexuality and gender are two distinct things even though that might seem confusing. When I told my partner I felt NB we were already active sexually and he was a bit confused like you are. He thought maybe I wasn't happy or wanted something different physically, but I didn't. He wanted to know if I was gay or bi. He wanted to know if I wanted to do different sexual things, like me pretending to be a man. In my case it didn't. I feel like my brain has no gender but that has nothing to do with my sex life or sexual appetite because my hormones and my body parts feel extremely ... female. Again, I'm not speaking for everyone. I know NB people who are bi, or gay, or even asexual. I'm only speaking for me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that being NB doesn't mean that a person looks like they have no gender, unless that's the way they want to look. It doesn't mean the person is bisexual or gay or any other non-hetero orientation, unless they are. Everyone is different, just like you are Autistic but you don't feel like most other autistic people on the inside.

I didn't say you were shouting and screaming, I was referring to me or the people I have gotten into arguments over about this subject. It's nice to be able to talk it out and share experiences, like we're doing.

I wasn't referring to how to tell your partner, I just meant if you were a NB woman looking for a boyfriend, or a gay NB man looking for a boyfriend (for example) and you wanted some dating advice on how to attract men but you had NB on your gender profile, people may ask if you are male or female in order to give suitable advice.

Also I tend to think of the "sex" more than the "gender". Maybe it's the way I've been brought up. Sex change is OK, I don't have anything against that. But you don't have to conform to all gender stereotypes to be that gender. I'm a tomboy, but I don't like sports. Maybe I am NB myself but I prefer to go by my sex, which is female. I am a female because I get bloomin' periods (obviously not all women get periods, such as children and post-menopausal women and perhaps women with an ovary deficit or had ovaries taken out or whatever, but you know what I mean).

AMAB, but my ASD has the characteristics of female presentation.

Ah, OK I get what you mean about the gender profile thing. I've never done internet dating or needed a "profile" and "gender declaration" when meeting someone. When I met my partner I felt like a woman meeting a man, and that's how he read it too. In my case there wasn't any confusion and there was no reason for there to be. I guess if I was looking for a hookup or partner online I'd likely say I was female in a profile, but then give more info if it turned into a relationship. That's because in my case, feeling NB wouldn't affect a hookup in any way whatsoever. They'd never know otherwise and that's fine. I could likely have an entire relationship without the other person knowing because it doesn't affect anything, except that I like to be honest with people. Other NB people might feel more intersex or have a different sexual orientation. Maybe they would look and present like the opposite sex or very gender neutral, and they'd want to be treated as such. It depends on the person.

I get what you're saying about sex and tomboy. That's something I forgot to address earlier. In my case (again only speaking for me), I never felt like a tomboy. I never felt like a girl either though. Sure I liked dolls but that doesn't mean I'm female. Boys can like dolls and they're possibly going to be parents when they grow up, so they should learn to nurture too. I liked dresses because they were more comfortable than jeans. I liked long hair with ribbons because I thought it was pretty. I bet if I was a boy I would have wanted long hair too. I still like men with long hair. Sometimes I did boy things because I had a big brother who was my only playmate, but I never felt like a boy OR a girl. I felt like a person or actually like a brain, always thinking but not necessarily stuck into a physical body. I don't think NB always means that a girl was a tomboy or a boy played with dolls, but it could (Wow I hope this makes sense.)

@Ferret, It's funny you say that. Most of my men friends who are autistic say they feel female in terms of their ASD presentation because they match the stereotypically female characteristics of autism (masking, being empathetic, etc.) I always think those lists are rubbish and I don't relate to them much at all. I relate to the stereotypically male presentation of autism because I don't have any interest in hanging out with a bunch of women or learning how to do woman things.

I think I've just been looking at this in an entirely non-stereotypical way. Some people here assume that I'm focusing way too much on gender norms and stereotypes and that men should do masculine things and women should do feminine things. But I have never actually thought of that at all, in fact quite the contrary. The way I've always seen it is "you don't have to conform to the gender roles but you're still biologically a he or a she". That's the lens I've been looking at it from. Personally I don't think gender roles should be strictly expected in society, but I still believe that Non-Binary is just a theory or a label, not an existing sex. So I just go by man or woman.
I'm not dismissing what you wrote, I'm just saying that is what I've always seen it as. But I'm interested and curious about it and I feel I have learnt something.

I realize the discussion has basically moved onto to a different point, but the thread title had me looking up the lyrics.

Glad they were being sarcastic, because the consistent use of "feel like" leaves basically anyone in the world who wants to relate to the song, able to do so.

Pretty brilliant, actually, given the song was written before all that "feel" talk became a thing.

Looking out on the morning rain
I used to feel so uninspired
And when I knew I had to face another day
Lord, it made me feel so tired
Before the day I met you, life was so unkind
But you're the key to my peace of mind
'Cause you make me feel
You make me feel
You make me feel like a natural woman (woman)
When my soul was in the lost and found
You came along to claim it
I didn't know just what was wrong with me
'Til your kiss helped me name it
Now I'm no longer doubtful, of what I'm living for
And if I make you happy I don't need to do more
'Cause you make me feel
You make me feel
You make me feel like a natural woman (woman)
Oh, baby, what you've done to me (what you've done to me)
You make me feel so good inside (good inside)
And I just want to be (want to be)
Close to you, you make me feel so alive
You make me feel
You make me feel
You make me feel like a natural woman (woman)
You make me feel
You make me feel
You make me feel like a natural woman (woman)
You make me feel
You make me feel

I don't believe in gender roles either. We have that in common. That doesn't mean that women can't like "woman" things if they want to. It doesn't mean men can't like "man" things. It doesn't mean gender doesn't exist. In my opinion it just means people can like or not like whatever the heck they want, and if others want to label it as "male" or "female" behaviour, that's up to them.

I don't freak out if a boy wants to play with toy cars or even toy guns (within reason), just like I don't freak out if they want a doll or an Easy-Bake oven. It doesn't mean the boy is transgendered and it doesn't mean he's gay, but if he (she) is, then that's fine too. People are people.

I wasn't trying to make any kind of political statement when I switched my WP profile from female to NB. I'm not trying to prove I'm more enlightened than anyone else or that there's something wrong with being cisgendered. I'm not even trying to say there are three genders (or more). I'm basically saying that my gender / sex is no one's business unless I feel like telling them. We could all be lying on here and everyone could be opposite of what their profile says, anyway. For all we know you are a man, The Recidivist is really a little old lady or teenaged girl, and Cornflake is the alien on our logo with no goods whatsoever. Sorry to those people if any offence was taken, but you get my drift. If there was a blank in the dropdown for gender I would have chosen that, because I think it's weird that we're forced to declare our genitals to internet strangers when we don't want to date them.

Beyond that, my brain has always felt like it doesn't conform to what is considered male or what is considered female. It's both. It's a person. It's just me.

@DW - I LOVE THE SONG -- I agree it's amazing. I've been meaning to post it but I was looking for the Big Chill version, which doesn't seem to exist on YT for some reason.

No you're right. We could be anybody. I could be your uncle for all you know, or your next door neighbour, pretending to be some British woman.

I'm glad we've come to a mutual understanding on this gender/sex matter anyway.

I'm only speaking for myself and my own experience. It could be different for others who might feel offended by comments from the past, but I hope things will be better moving forward. The most important thing imo is that it's OK to have differences of opinion, but if we know they might hurt people here or sound judgmental, we keep them to ourselves or else keep reading other people's comments until things make more sense. At the end of the day we're all just people living the lives we were born to have, with the bodies and minds we were given. We're all equal and we all deserve to be treated with respect.

Thanks for the chat, Joe. I enjoyed it.

Me too, I really hate having conflicts on here, and I know it may sound like I come on here looking for conflict but I'm not (not referring to you by
the way ). It seems easier to keep my opinions to myself when interacting offline, but when I'm (anonymously) online I find it easier to speak my mind. Then all of a sudden I find myself in the midst of an argument and I'm like "oh s**t, now I've upset people, what do I do? What do I do?" And I like closure so I can't rest until I have settled the dispute I inadvertently caused or got myself involved with.
But I do prefer to make peace with people and just get along even if we don't have the same opinions.

And I'm not saying that to make excuses for what I said in the last few months, I'm just explaining the truth.

Why are the doings of this Twitter account being reported on in the news, at all?

I just now looked them up on Twitter. This account has only 2,143 Followers -- which is quite a few more followers than I have, but not exactly super-influential. (Quickly glancing at the follower list, they appear to be mostly right-wingers and a few TERFs.)

So why has anyone in the mass media deemed them to be newsworthy?