[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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cyberdad
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05 Dec 2023, 1:04 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Here in the U.S.A., we have a very strong, well-organized pro-Zionist movement, which is backed not just by Jews (both American and Israeli), but also by the much larger number of evangelical Christians who believe in "premillenial dispensationalism." Christian Zionism is actually older than Jewish Zionism.


These evangelical groups actually believe if all the tribes of Israel return to the promised land it will usher in the 2nd coming of Christ.



The_Face_of_Boo
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05 Dec 2023, 4:57 am

^ And Hezbollah's Shiites also believe in the return of the Christ lol, alongside with Imam al-Mahdi, and together will defeat the AntiChrist in the endtimes.
It's a doomsday cult, they are more similar to the Christian evangelical groups than they would admit it.



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05 Dec 2023, 6:37 am

cyberdad wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Here in the U.S.A., we have a very strong, well-organized pro-Zionist movement, which is backed not just by Jews (both American and Israeli), but also by the much larger number of evangelical Christians who believe in "premillenial dispensationalism." Christian Zionism is actually older than Jewish Zionism.


These evangelical groups actually believe if all the tribes of Israel return to the promised land it will usher in the 2nd coming of Christ.

Traditionally, most Americans familiar with the situation have had pro-Zionist views insofar as not feeling hostile to the State of Israel or Israelis and not being actively opposed to the notion of a Jewish state. Most of those people are neither Jewish nor Evangelical. Things may have shifted recently, but I don't support the implication that any American who supports Israel belongs to one of those two groups. This being distinct from Europe where traditional antisemitism has led to the "man on the street" there being more anti-Zionist than their American counterparts.


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05 Dec 2023, 9:53 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Jakki wrote:
And of Course, imho that Israel controls our US congress.

This is an updated version of classic anti-Jewish conspiracy theories.

Israel does not control the U.S. government, although I can see why it might seem that way.

Here in the U.S.A., we have a very strong, well-organized pro-Zionist movement, which is backed not just by Jews (both American and Israeli), but also by the much larger number of evangelical Christians who believe in "premillenial dispensationalism." Christian Zionism is actually older than Jewish Zionism.

Also, at various times the alliance between Israel and the U.S.A. has been seen as having important strategic value for the U.S.A.


So ... this kinda makes me wonder the logic of the UN ,not stepping in long before in these gawd awful messes our country (usa) has created in a "un christian middle East"lolz, With additional greif created by Israel ..With No input from the UN. .The concept of stategic advantage over ancient civilizations that have existed long before the USA or the current inception of Israel . is kinda beyond the idea of Peaceful cooperation..... :skull:
Even if there was some strategic concept going on here .,There is no Russian or Chinese threat of communisim.
Even the Afghani'S drive Russia out of their country, And subsequently the USA too......
The role of Israeli politicians in the US propaganda , raised to the level of undeniable diplomats and statesmen.
Whose opinions seems to have been concepts that "our" government adhers to..( ie. Henry Kissinger).etc.
Helped draw us into their "Israels" wars. Or Middle Eastern Wars with the concept of strategy. And if you percieve
that this is anything but control and land grabs. More Specifically Or likely Corporate expansion,to have control of Energy sources.( oil) . Additionally please conceptualize that our USA budget is controlled by the Industrial Military
complex .. Then reframe all you have seen per News broadasts and media generated opinion,With the idea of What entities control our budget of our everloving USA . :heart:
Of course it is also well known in the small arms Industry ,that the IMI (Israeli Military Institute)has created some of the best and most durable firearms of the 20 th century.. :heart:
Connect dots here please ( imho)...War = big business, every politician that ever took lobbyist money from a Weapons etc. manufacturer.Would know this War equals business fact . Whom do our politicians serve? But am not attempting to side with Jews or Palestinians but merely the facts, But if you need to conflate Anti Semetism concepts into this reality,( then obviously the Media have done their job well ) and they need everyone to promote that narrative. :roll: ( follow the money) :|


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05 Dec 2023, 10:23 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
^ And Hezbollah's Shiites also believe in the return of the Christ lol, alongside with Imam al-Mahdi, and together will defeat the AntiChrist in the endtimes.
It's a doomsday cult, they are more similar to the Christian evangelical groups than they would admit it.


Really? Muslim sects believe in the end times and in Rapture-like scenarios?

So...American Evangelicals ...who are pro Zionist...but are at the same time antisemitic (because they expect their Jewish allies to all either convert to Jesus..or go to hell... when Christ returns) unwittingly share the same end times beliefs as these antisemitic AND anti Zionist Muslim groups?

So.. American Evangelicals should join forces with Hezbollah and both should work together toward...the common goal of hastening the end times! :D



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05 Dec 2023, 7:46 pm

The BBC has seen and heard evidence of rape, sexual violence, and mutilation of women during the 7 October Hamas attacks.

** WARNING: ARTICLE CONTAINS EXTREMELY GRAPHIC DESCRIPTIONS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND RAPE **


Link to BBC Article:  HERE . I will not post any details.


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05 Dec 2023, 8:29 pm

^ The level of hatred and depravity in the young Palestinian men (yes let's stop denying their identity) must be beyond psychopathic.

I clearly remember the celebration of young men across the Gaza border as naked Israeli women were paraded both alive and dead to the cheers of along the streets of Gaza. Those who want to "sanitise" this barbarity will of course say that this isn't all palestinians. However nobody in Gaza is trying very hard to oppose them. Infact is/was there much opposition to begin with? they happily slip into Palestinian society with ease.

In case anybody has amnesia - The foundational charter of Hamas, published in 1988, articulated its ideology as a struggle against Jews, calling for the destruction of Israel to establish an Islamic state in its place.
Since the mid-1990s Hamas has become increasingly popular within Palestinian society due to its anti-Israeli stance and opposition to the Israeli–Palestinian peace process.
HAMAS has carried out attacks against Israeli civilians, including suicide bombings and indiscriminate rocket attacks.These actions have led Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, Paraguay, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, the United States and the European Union to designate Hamas a terrorist organization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

When you do due diligence it will no surprise at the complete barbarity of the HAMAS terrorists (as shocking as it was) but what is more concerning is how radicalised the rest of the Palestinian population is?



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05 Dec 2023, 10:12 pm

cyberdad wrote:
When you do due diligence it will no surprise at the complete barbarity of the HAMAS terrorists (as shocking as it was) but what is more concerning is how radicalised the rest of the Palestinian population is?


Given what Israel has put them through, it's not shocking in the slightest. You'd feel the same way if you were in their shoes.


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05 Dec 2023, 10:53 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Those who want to "sanitise" this barbarity will of course say that this isn't all palestinians.
It's less about trying to "sanitize" and more about striving to be accurate by not overgeneralizing groups of people. No one on here is saying that the terrorist attacks weren't horrific.


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05 Dec 2023, 10:54 pm

JFC,

Are they still saying that?


:evil:



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05 Dec 2023, 10:56 pm

It appears so.


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06 Dec 2023, 11:26 am

Yes the actions of Hamas are abdolutely beyond disgusting ..No doubt . . . And When the crusades in medievel times
attempted to conquer a region ,was equally disgusting . And NO am not trying to excuse .Anyones actions .! Ideally would be a cessation of hostilities . But when you bomb a people into the stone age and steal their homes. There might be a flashback effect. ? What is the ratio thus far of Hamas/ Palestinian.to Israeli deaths currently .
And without any significant control of the international media being reported . To influence support ,one way or the other ? So poor people got poor ways of gaining attention to their cause. Tribal mentalities that are testosterone driven . Apparently want to make an impact, somehow publically ....If lesser methods of getting attn. have not been successful . Then there might be A step up in methods to get attn.??. 8O .
But in the long run . . . It is a War .. regardless of atrocities..anyone on either side ,are just lucky to survive and get out alive . Of the psychosis that is the Testofest of "War". In Warfare if the odds are unequally balanced the methodologies of Warfare can literally become unlimited. ie. consider Hiroshima and Nagasaki . How many generations of a people were destroyed and all subsequent extended health effects on people living on the Island of Japan . :( :ninja:
[[[[ War is NOT healthy for children And other living things]]] :roll:


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06 Dec 2023, 3:46 pm

Jakki wrote:
What is the ratio thus far of Hamas/ Palestinian.to Israeli deaths currently

Here are the most recent numbers given although they probably aren’t accurate for a couple reasons:
Quote:
At least 16,015 Palestinians have been killed since then [Oct. 7th], according to Gaza Health Ministry figures, while 1,200 people were killed in Hamas' incursion into Israel, according to Israeli tallies.

Aid agencies warn that a humanitarian disaster in Gaza is worsening by the hour with most of its 2.3 million people homeless and trapped in a tiny, embattled coastal enclave, with little food, water, medical care, fuel or secure shelter.

With basic infrastructure devastated, phone and internet services frequently disrupted, and a number of health statisticians having been killed or gone missing, there is increasing concern that Gaza health authorities will be unable to continue keeping an accurate count of the casualty toll.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... %20tallies.

Other useful pieces of information on this topic at this link.^

Going by the numbers above, the ratio would be 40 Palestinians for every 3 Israelis.


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06 Dec 2023, 6:01 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Given what Israel has put them through, it's not shocking in the slightest. You'd feel the same way if you were in their shoes.


How about the many people subjected to slavery and colonisation all over the world? They all suffer intergenerational trauma loss of land and are subject to dehumanising discrimination and prejudice. Do you see them murdering, raping and bombing their former "masters"?

But you are right, if I was a south African black person I would definitely play with the fantasy of murdering all the whites (and I wouldn't blame them), But guess what! South Africans black people happily put aside 400 years of slavery and humiliation and reconciled with their former evil masters, They live quite peacefully now.

I'm sorry but the Palestinians are not any more special than other people in their shoes (they may want the media to think they are). They don't get the freedom to act like terrorists when they have been given ample opportunity to let bygones be bygones and work with the Israelis.



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06 Dec 2023, 7:12 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Given what Israel has put them through, it's not shocking in the slightest. You'd feel the same way if you were in their shoes.


How about the many people subjected to slavery and colonisation all over the world? They all suffer intergenerational trauma loss of land and are subject to dehumanising discrimination and prejudice. Do you see them murdering, raping and bombing their former "masters"?

But you are right, if I was a south African black person I would definitely play with the fantasy of murdering all the whites (and I wouldn't blame them), But guess what! South Africans black people happily put aside 400 years of slavery and humiliation and reconciled with their former evil masters, They live quite peacefully now.

I'm sorry but the Palestinians are not any more special than other people in their shoes (they may want the media to think they are). They don't get the freedom to act like terrorists when they have been given ample opportunity to let bygones be bygones and work with the Israelis.


I don't recall ever suggesting they have the right to murder or torture people, not that being unable to make a statement honestly stops you from making said statement.

They absolutely have every right to feel as though a great and ongoing injustice has been perpetuated against them. You're perfectly comfortable using 'in their shoes' to justify Israeli atrocities.

cyberdad wrote:
You and I have no say in what Israel is deciding to do. I am however, putting myself in Israel's shoes now (I am not talking about past attacks by the IDF on Palestinian terroritories) and really can't see how else they can engage,

I am inviting you to advise the Israeli government and see (hypothetically) if your idea would work in stopping the shelling of Israeli cities or rescue the hostages held by HAMAS.


I'm pretty sure I've got a better record when it comes to justifying atrocious treatment of non-combatants based on past experiences.

cyberdad wrote:
Israel has always been surrounded by enemies from the inception of the state of Israel in 1948. You need to look at the conflict from a historical perspective whereby the newly emerged settler state of Israel who were largely unarmed (made up of Kibbutz settlers and refugees from WWII) were no match for the armies of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestinian militia and had to fight literally for their lives against impossible odds. It was sheer determination and a desire to maintain safety for their children that lead to the development of the IDF and Mossad. The post-WWII Palestinians had been pro-Nazi (google it) and the population were brainwashed to be antisemitic. The manifesto of the PLO had always been to drive the Jews into the sea. For the Arab league led by Egypt's president Nasser it was simply an opportunity to grab land and expand their borders.

It is totally understandable why the IDF choose to follow a policy that pro-active militarily against the Palestinian population. It is learned from historic lessons that the state of Israel cannot let their guard down otherwise they will be vulnerable, And it's happened again and again. It is totally understandable why the Israelis have so little trust of the Palestinians.


cyberdad wrote:
There are always limits to what you can allow terrorists to do. You can't let them walk over you and then turn the other cheek.

The State of Israel was attacked in an unprovoked attack by all the Arab league in 1948. The trauma from WWII was already sitting with many of the refugees who faced this onslaught. They collectively decided never again. Despite winning the day, the trauma of Arab attacks on Israeli civilians over multiple wars leaves scars.


I can come up with more, so far I've got 2/3s of the thread left, if I want to find terrible justifications for atrocity from you.

I guess some people and their traumas are just more special than others. :roll:


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07 Dec 2023, 7:17 am

After reading this, I came to feel that Hamas and Netanyahu should be made to feel truly sorry for what happened on 7 October.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/05/angry-relatives-of-hamas-captives-and-ex-hostages-confront-netanyahu

By that I mean they should come to learn that everyone close to them, friends and family, had died as a consequence of their actions. At present, Hamas are celebrating what they've achieved so far, despite the presumed demise of 20K of their compatriots, whereas I don't know what sort of feelings Netanyahu has.


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