[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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Fnord
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08 Oct 2023, 8:38 pm

Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it has blown up.

By Tal Schneider, 2023-10-09, 15:58

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank -- bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas -- or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority's West Bank government -- from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.

Bolstered by this policy, Hamas grew stronger and stronger until Saturday, Israel's "Pearl Harbor", the bloodiest day in its history -- when terrorists crossed the border, slaughtered hundreds of Israelis and kidnapped an unknown number under the cover of thousands of rockets fired at towns throughout the country's south and center.

The difference between Islamic Jihad and Hamas doesn't matter much at this point. As far as the State of Israel is concerned, the territory is under the control of Hamas, and it is responsible for all the training and activities there.

Hamas became stronger and used the auspices of peace that Israelis so longed for as cover for its training, and hundreds of Israelis have paid with their lives for this massive omission.



Read the complete, unedited article  HERE 

(tl;dr Version: Benjamin Netanyahu screwed up by trying to play off Hamas against other terrorist groups, and his efforts cost his country the lives of over a thousand people.)

:cry:


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08 Oct 2023, 11:19 pm

cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Why do you support the Russian conquest of the Ukraine?


Had the west remained nuetral (like they do with every other conquest) I don't think Iran or HAMAS would have organised this invasion, Iran has calculated that with the west pumping aid to Ukraine, this was an opportune time to launch an attack on Israel.

You managed to cram a lot of nonsense into one sentence.

Since when has the west been "neutral" about invasions? We werent neutral in the wars in former Yugoslavia, or Kuwait, or Korea or Vietnam.

And if we had appeased Russia in Ukraine not only would it have encouraged China to seize Taiwan, it would have encouraged Iran to use actual overt direct aggression with own armed forces (instead of just encouraging local terrorists to us hang gliders Iran would have used its own jet fighters).

Ukraine doesnt effect what we do in the middle east. We never stopped giving billions in aid to Israel. Our Navy is still in the Persian gulf.

And you still havent answered my question. The question being "why do you support (or are at least okay with) Russia conquering Ukraine?"



cyberdad
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08 Oct 2023, 11:32 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
And you still havent answered my question. The question being "why do you support (or are at least okay with) Russia conquering Ukraine?"

I'm not. But the globe relies on Russia economically so it's economic and geopolitical suicide to take Ukraine's side.



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08 Oct 2023, 11:35 pm

Palestinians parading streets of Sydney Australia celebrating the deaths of Israeli civilians

Image

Image

Australian prime minister condemning firing of fireworks from moving cars into traffic. Abduction and torture of civilians is not a cause of celebration.



naturalplastic
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08 Oct 2023, 11:37 pm

cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
And you still havent answered my question. The question being "why do you support (or are at least okay with) Russia conquering Ukraine?"

I'm not. But the globe relies on Russia economically so it's economic and geopolitical suicide to take Ukraine's side.


So you ARE in favor of Russia conquering Ukraine.

In favor of it because ...why? Because taking Ukraine's side is more 'suicidal' than taking Russia's side?

And if thats your logic...why do you support Israel? Iran has oil. Israel does not. So why not take Iran's side against Israel? Isnt supporting Israel also "suicidal" by your logic?



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08 Oct 2023, 11:40 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

So you ARE in favor of Russia conquering Ukraine.

In favor of it because ...why? Because taking Ukraine's side is more 'suicidal' than taking Russia's side?

And if thats your logic...why do you support Israel? Iran has oil. Israel does not. So why not take Iran's side against Israel? Isnt supporting Israel also "suicidal" by your logic?


There is evidence Ukraine may have instagated Putin's hand. It does not exonerate Putin but I am a practical man with Russia. Historic borders aside Russia considers Ukraine part of their people like China considers Tibet and Xinjiang part of theirs (Russians and Ukrainians are actually closer). So by your logic we should be waging war on China.



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08 Oct 2023, 11:50 pm

cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:

So you ARE in favor of Russia conquering Ukraine.

In favor of it because ...why? Because taking Ukraine's side is more 'suicidal' than taking Russia's side?

And if thats your logic...why do you support Israel? Iran has oil. Israel does not. So why not take Iran's side against Israel? Isnt supporting Israel also "suicidal" by your logic?


There is evidence Ukraine may have instagated Putin's hand. It does not exonerate Putin but I am a practical man with Russia. Historic borders aside Russia considers Ukraine part of their people like China considers Tibet and Xinjiang part of theirs (Russians and Ukrainians are actually closer). So by your logic we should be waging war on China.

We are not waging war on Russia now. So how would that be "my logic"? And we do support Taiwan. And you havent explained why you support Israel instead of Iran ...if economic survival and practicality are the only concerns.



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08 Oct 2023, 11:52 pm

I can't stand it anymore I should just fricking kill myself.



magz
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09 Oct 2023, 1:15 am

What keeps puzzling me is:
Where was Mosad?
One of the most famous intelligence services in the world - how could preparations for something like this slip their attention?
What - apart from the judicary "reform" - is wrong inside Israel?


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cyberdad
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09 Oct 2023, 2:46 am

naturalplastic wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:

So you ARE in favor of Russia conquering Ukraine.

In favor of it because ...why? Because taking Ukraine's side is more 'suicidal' than taking Russia's side?

And if thats your logic...why do you support Israel? Iran has oil. Israel does not. So why not take Iran's side against Israel? Isnt supporting Israel also "suicidal" by your logic?


There is evidence Ukraine may have instagated Putin's hand. It does not exonerate Putin but I am a practical man with Russia. Historic borders aside Russia considers Ukraine part of their people like China considers Tibet and Xinjiang part of theirs (Russians and Ukrainians are actually closer). So by your logic we should be waging war on China.

We are not waging war on Russia now. So how would that be "my logic"? And we do support Taiwan. And you havent explained why you support Israel instead of Iran ...if economic survival and practicality are the only concerns.


I'll make it simple
China kills innocent Tibetans and Uiyghers = we continue trading with them
Russia wages war on Ukraine - we impose sanctions

How is that equitable exactly?



cyberdad
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09 Oct 2023, 2:50 am

magz wrote:
What keeps puzzling me is:
Where was Mosad?
One of the most famous intelligence services in the world - how could preparations for something like this slip their attention?
What - apart from the judicary "reform" - is wrong inside Israel?


Mossad are good (perhaps the best). But this was totally unpredictable. An alliance between HAMAS, Hezbollah and Iran leading a coordinated attack on Yom Kippur knowing security would be at their lowest.

The Reim music festival exposed 3500 civilians within reach of terrorists. They were like sitting ducks.



cyberdad
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09 Oct 2023, 2:52 am

Fnord wrote:
Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it has blown up.

By Tal Schneider, 2023-10-09, 15:58

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank -- bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas -- or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority's West Bank government -- from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.

Bolstered by this policy, Hamas grew stronger and stronger until Saturday, Israel's "Pearl Harbor", the bloodiest day in its history -- when terrorists crossed the border, slaughtered hundreds of Israelis and kidnapped an unknown number under the cover of thousands of rockets fired at towns throughout the country's south and center.

The difference between Islamic Jihad and Hamas doesn't matter much at this point. As far as the State of Israel is concerned, the territory is under the control of Hamas, and it is responsible for all the training and activities there.

Hamas became stronger and used the auspices of peace that Israelis so longed for as cover for its training, and hundreds of Israelis have paid with their lives for this massive omission.



Read the complete, unedited article  HERE 

(tl;dr Version: Benjamin Netanyahu screwed up by trying to play off Hamas against other terrorist groups, and his efforts cost his country the lives of over a thousand people.)

:cry:


Totally agree, Netanyahu must take at least some of the blame for inadvertently strengthening HAMAS



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09 Oct 2023, 2:59 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Lebanese Christians are like « Those Hamas are no different than ISIS, they would do the same to us if they rule ». And the Shias are being total idiots for supporting their « cause ».

I wouldn’t want a Hamas nation to my border either.


Isn't Syria practically a puppet state of Iran?


Basically a Russia-Iran's shared puppet state.



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09 Oct 2023, 3:00 am

Persephone29 wrote:
Patrick22348 wrote:
Jakki wrote:
When you destroy .. an entire peoples country, or even just one persons home under victimizing circumstances
including using violence and murder .. It could be construed ..that you might be creating a situation that is primed to radicalize people . And then even though you are the country using terror tactics to abolish a country. AND. you have control of the bulk of the" available media" in the world ,in one way or another. You can easily make the people on the other side ,out to be terrorists . Just for defending their home and people . And if it becomes a War , which it has
And their country has few assets to defend itself . Then those people might retaliate using unconventional methods.?
These Palestinians culture and existence is based in reality, over thousands of years old , But the biblical concepts of Israel and Christianity are not even in the same Century as Palestinians . Israel 1967, Palestine 1000 years or more before Christ . But I am no scholar on these topics.. But might feel disrespected if someone stole my home.
And the US has used these exact methods to get the political objectives attained . ie. 9/11 and Sadam Hussein and entire country of Iraq . But needed 9/11 as an excuse to the US population . :skull:
The Jordanians have ended up on the short end of the stick aswell. Having to recieve thousands of Palistinians
as refugees .. It is a wonder that Jordan and Israel have not ended up in a War, Aswell.
Not sure whom to credit this Quote to," One mans freedom fighter is another mans Terrorist"
and it appears to be a valid observation even today. Am regretable to write .


In my opinion, what it really boils down to is that Isrealis are more "white" than Palestinians. Selling angry Muslims is a hard sell in many circumstances, even if someone's house is being blown out of existence.



Israel is the size of New Jersey.
For the longest time, surrounding countries wouldn't even acknowledge their right to exist. Like it or not, there is a book that has outlasted most every single book in the world, that book is the Bible. That book mentions the Jews, and their land that was given to them by God and is was initially much larger!



You can't force your faith on others. We think that your book is a fairy tale, it's like going to someone's home and tell them "Sorry, but my fairy tale book dictactes me to take your home".

I mean, jeez, your bible states that even Lebanon should be part of the promised land, and the Canaanites should be exterminated.
Oh btw: https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-canaa ... o-lebanon/

Nope, we are not obliged to respect your bible, nor your God, nor "his promise"..... Long live Bha'al!! :mrgreen:



Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 09 Oct 2023, 3:05 am, edited 4 times in total.

magz
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09 Oct 2023, 3:04 am

cyberdad wrote:
I'll make it simple
China kills innocent Tibetans and Uiyghers = we continue trading with them
Russia wages war on Ukraine - we impose sanctions

How is that equitable exactly?
There are things called boundaries and borders - but there are also more prosaic reasons. USA has allies all around the world and its action or inaction depends on how it influences the allies. Being one of them, I know perfectly well why the current way of engagement in East Europe does make sense.
You are one of the allies, too, by the way.

cyberdad wrote:
Mossad are good (perhaps the best). But this was totally unpredictable. An alliance between HAMAS, Hezbollah and Iran leading a coordinated attack on Yom Kippur knowing security would be at their lowest.
No, there's no way something of this size would be unpredictable. They have spies everywhere there. The unpredictable things are one-person suicide attacks. Something of this size, requiring coordination od thousands of fighters is impossible to evade every spy Mosad has.
What seems possible would be something similar to what happened 50 years ago, when Mosad knew but politicians chose to ignore it.

And this time it's not Yom Kippur, it's Sukkot.


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09 Oct 2023, 3:10 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
Patrick22348 wrote:
Jakki wrote:
When you destroy .. an entire peoples country, or even just one persons home under victimizing circumstances
including using violence and murder .. It could be construed ..that you might be creating a situation that is primed to radicalize people . And then even though you are the country using terror tactics to abolish a country. AND. you have control of the bulk of the" available media" in the world ,in one way or another. You can easily make the people on the other side ,out to be terrorists . Just for defending their home and people . And if it becomes a War , which it has
And their country has few assets to defend itself . Then those people might retaliate using unconventional methods.?
These Palestinians culture and existence is based in reality, over thousands of years old , But the biblical concepts of Israel and Christianity are not even in the same Century as Palestinians . Israel 1967, Palestine 1000 years or more before Christ . But I am no scholar on these topics.. But might feel disrespected if someone stole my home.
And the US has used these exact methods to get the political objectives attained . ie. 9/11 and Sadam Hussein and entire country of Iraq . But needed 9/11 as an excuse to the US population . :skull:
The Jordanians have ended up on the short end of the stick aswell. Having to recieve thousands of Palistinians
as refugees .. It is a wonder that Jordan and Israel have not ended up in a War, Aswell.
Not sure whom to credit this Quote to," One mans freedom fighter is another mans Terrorist"
and it appears to be a valid observation even today. Am regretable to write .


In my opinion, what it really boils down to is that Isrealis are more "white" than Palestinians. Selling angry Muslims is a hard sell in many circumstances, even if someone's house is being blown out of existence.



Israel is the size of New Jersey.
For the longest time, surrounding countries wouldn't even acknowledge their right to exist. Like it or not, there is a book that has outlasted most every single book in the world, that book is the Bible. That book mentions the Jews, and their land that was given to them by God and is was initially much larger!



You can't force your faith on others.


To force one's faith on someone else is about as UnAmerican as you're going to get. And it should be pointed out that not everyone who professes Christianity believes Israel in the Biblical sense is the present Jewish state, but that true believers united by faith in Christ (or the invisible church rather than any single denomination, if you will) are - that is, the term Israel, according to supersessionist doctrine, is a matter of faith not ethnicity. This should not be confused with idiot Christian Identity, which is a racist, Anti-Semitic pseudo-doctrine. As for where the true Israel (the invisible church) resides, it's where ever two or three meet in Christ rather than any specific geographic area like the Levant.
Or at least that's one way of looking at it.


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Last edited by Kraichgauer on 09 Oct 2023, 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.