[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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Persephone29
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03 Dec 2023, 12:16 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
I read the article, it fits all the criteria for ethnic cleansing. Where I have difficulty getting on board with any sort of 'getting back to life' prior to this or any other conflict between to two peoples/countries/partition agreements, etc... is that it's not going to last. It would just be show for the watching world. As soon as there is something else to divert our focus, both parties are going to be right back at it.

When is there ever going to be an intervention that completely separates the two so that it's impossible for either side to go about the business of daily terrorism? Or ethnic cleansing? I looked up the term before I commented, to make sure I had a better understanding of all it entailed. I get really angry, so my default is set to, "why is it necessarily 'ethnic cleansing,' whom else are they supposed to kill?" And, if they encourage them to evacuate, so as not to kill them, how have they been cleansed? They're still alive, just alive somewhere else. But, I read where to drive them out is part of 'ethnic cleansing' so I understand that better. But, from a humanitarian stand point, isn't it better the be alive? This intervention will not guarantee life or lasting peace for either side. It's just replacing the pieces on the existing chess board. More, from both sides, are going to die all over again.

So, how is getting the ICC going to help beyond prosecuting the current criminals? When being arrested for the 'cause' may elevate them to a political prisoner status. And the free ones will fall in line to fill their shoes again and again, on both sides.

I say grade school tactics still have a place in the world. Separate them like two incorrigible kids... Probably naive, certainly unpopular and considered low brow, backward thinking. But, wth, I thought being alive was the ultimate goal of humanitarian efforts, not land rights.

I think the separation between genocide and ethnic cleansing is something like this. Genocide would be the deliberate planned killing of all the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Ethnic cleansing would be using force and intimidation for the purpose of removing all Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza. Certainly mass murder can be a tactic of ethnic cleansing but killing them all is not the ultimate goal. It could be argued that genocide is a subcategory of ethnic cleansing.

If the goal is the eradication of Hamas and it results in most or all Palestinians leaving, and the Israelis are not unhappy about that result is that ethnic cleansing? Not that it matters.



Yes, I get it. And I think that's a factor in how HAMAS proceeds. They know the spectators will scream ethnic cleansing, so they hide behind the Palestinian citizens in many ways (not just physically), including political opinion and public outrage.

If the UN gets involved, it would be pretty wishy washy for them to say, "OOooppss, that partition agreement put in place by us in 1947/48 was a mistake, we're going to need to relocate the Jews again." And from a practical standpoint, Israel is an important contributor to the global economy. Palestine, on the other hand, is not. It makes more sense to move the Palestinians. They simply exist. I don't deny that they have a right to exist. But, like a disabled child who cannot look after itself and is taken advantage of, they need a guardian ad litem. Israel doesn't.

I'll never get that part. I can understand every point presented, but if it results in the same outcome repeatedly, it's time for a change. If the UN can commit to long term presence (as in FOREVER), I say, "great." My fear is that forever is longer than they have a monetary attention span to possess.


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TwilightPrincess
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03 Dec 2023, 12:26 pm

Maybe Israel’s contributions to the global economy would be significantly less impressive if they weren’t given billions of dollars in aid every year.


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Jono
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03 Dec 2023, 1:12 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Jono wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
So, how is getting the ICC going to help beyond prosecuting the current criminals? When being arrested for the 'cause' may elevate them to a political prisoner status. And the free ones will fall in line to fill their shoes again and again, on both sides.


Because, it's not being held accountable that has allowed this thing to continue in the first place. Plus, the UN needs to get more actively involved. We need a UN peacekeeping force there in order to replace the Israeli forces in the interim. First in order to stop terrorism and secondly to stop the settler violence, which the Israeli forces are actually currently supporting.


The UN force has been tried and they left as soon as requested for understandable reasons. As far as the ICC is concerned what are they going do, invade Israel and arrest Netanyahu’s government, the top brass of the IDF, as well as settlement leaders?

It will be up to the Israelis. Jews being a small minority in this world and having been persecuted for centuries are loathe take actions that would result in a civil war.


The last time that UN peacekeeping forces were there was between the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948 and the six-day war in 1967. Now the circumstances are different considering that both Egypt and Jordan have peace treaties with Israel, so the main threat to Israel now is either from Iranian proxies or from Palestinian armed groups. There are unlikely to be invasions from neighbouring Arab nations that caused the UN forces to leave in the first place.

The way way that ICC arrest warrants are supposed to work is that all signatories to the Rome Statute would be obliged to arrest the person under warrant if they step foot in their territories, diplomatic immunity does not apply. Unfortunately, there have been problems with this like when South Africa refused to arrest Omar Al Bashir when he came to attend an African Union summit in South Africa but that creates political problems for the countries to do that. Netanyahu would not be able to leave Israel if there was ICC arrest warrant for him, just like how it's risky for Putin to leave Russia now.



Persephone29
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03 Dec 2023, 1:28 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
Maybe Israel’s contributions to the global economy would be significantly less impressive if they weren’t given billions of dollars in aid every year.


At least they do something productive with the aid they receive. Look up how much aid the Palestinians were given over the past 3 years, and what do they have to show for it? Nothing but the same want, need and squalor.


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03 Dec 2023, 3:01 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
Maybe Israel’s contributions to the global economy would be significantly less impressive if they weren’t given billions of dollars in aid every year.


At least they do something productive with the aid they receive. Look up how much aid the Palestinians were given over the past 3 years, and what do they have to show for it? Nothing but the same want, need and squalor.


If someone is standing on your throat, your first priority is resolving that situation.


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03 Dec 2023, 3:31 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
Maybe Israel’s contributions to the global economy would be significantly less impressive if they weren’t given billions of dollars in aid every year.


For Parity
The international community has sent billions of dollars in aid to the Gaza Strip to provide relief to the more than 2 million Palestinians living there.[8] From 2014 to 2020, U.N. agencies spent nearly $4.5 billion in Gaza, including $600 million in 2020 alone. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, aid to Palestinians totaled over $40 billion between 1994 and 2020
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... lestinians

Qatar alone gave 1.3 Billion in one year before the war.

No other tiny minority of 2 million people has received this level of funding anywhere in the world.

Q. What has HAMAS done with all this money? As it's been said numerous times even by Palestinian voices, Gaza should be the Singapore of the middle east.



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03 Dec 2023, 4:18 pm

My point is that Israel has received a lot of support for decades which has enabled them to be a contributor in the global economy.

I didn't mean to imply that Palestine never received aid. Places, especially those that are overpopulated and low on resources, tend to need a lot of aid when infrastructure keeps on getting destroyed although, granted, the situation is much more complex than that.

From 2019 but an interesting take on the impact the occupation and damage to infrastructure had on livelihoods in Gaza and the West Bank:
https://ceobs.org/new-study-on-infrastr ... west-bank/


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03 Dec 2023, 6:01 pm

Beginning of this thread had written about the lack of belief of the concept of " No Knowledge" of the hamas intentions ..of their bombardment.. the Mossaud even has tentacles in the US gov.... Iraels actions are completely unteneable in my Opinion .. and is a obvious false flag issue.. which was copied from our very own gov interactions
with the US public...It is absolutely sickening that these people are in charge of any human beings lives or societies.
:twisted:


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cyberdad
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03 Dec 2023, 6:12 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
I didn't mean to imply that Palestine never received aid. Places, especially those that are overpopulated and low on resources, tend to need a lot of aid when infrastructure keeps on getting destroyed although, granted, the situation is much more complex than that.


Indeed!
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza ... rcna121099



ASPartOfMe
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03 Dec 2023, 7:24 pm

Jono wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Jono wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
So, how is getting the ICC going to help beyond prosecuting the current criminals? When being arrested for the 'cause' may elevate them to a political prisoner status. And the free ones will fall in line to fill their shoes again and again, on both sides.


Because, it's not being held accountable that has allowed this thing to continue in the first place. Plus, the UN needs to get more actively involved. We need a UN peacekeeping force there in order to replace the Israeli forces in the interim. First in order to stop terrorism and secondly to stop the settler violence, which the Israeli forces are actually currently supporting.


The UN force has been tried and they left as soon as requested for understandable reasons. As far as the ICC is concerned what are they going do, invade Israel and arrest Netanyahu’s government, the top brass of the IDF, as well as settlement leaders?

It will be up to the Israelis. Jews being a small minority in this world and having been persecuted for centuries are loathe take actions that would result in a civil war.


The last time that UN peacekeeping forces were there was between the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948 and the six-day war in 1967. Now the circumstances are different considering that both Egypt and Jordan have peace treaties with Israel, so the main threat to Israel now is either from Iranian proxies or from Palestinian armed groups. There are unlikely to be invasions from neighbouring Arab nations that caused the UN forces to leave in the first place.

The way way that ICC arrest warrants are supposed to work is that all signatories to the Rome Statute would be obliged to arrest the person under warrant if they step foot in their territories, diplomatic immunity does not apply. Unfortunately, there have been problems with this like when South Africa refused to arrest Omar Al Bashir when he came to attend an African Union summit in South Africa but that creates political problems for the countries to do that. Netanyahu would not be able to leave Israel if there was ICC arrest warrant for him, just like how it's risky for Putin to leave Russia now.


The peacekeeping forces would be between various Palestinian groups and Israel.


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03 Dec 2023, 8:13 pm

USS Carney responds to multiple attacks on commercial ships in Red Sea

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Commercial ships came under attack Sunday by drones and missiles in the Red Sea and the Navy destroyer Carney battled a bevy of incoming attacks as part of an hours-long assault claimed by Yemen’s Iran-backed Houthi rebels, officials said.

The attack potentially marked a major escalation in a series of maritime attacks in the Mideast linked to the Israel-Hamas war as multiple vessels found themselves in the crosshairs of a single Houthi assault for the first time in the conflict.

“We also have every reason to believe that these attacks, while launched by the Houthis in Yemen, are fully enabled by Iran,” U.S. Central Command said in a statement late Sunday afternoon U.S. time. “The United States will consider all appropriate responses in full coordination with its international allies and partners.”

All told, there were four attacks against three different commercial vessels operating in the southern Red Sea’s international waters.

In each case, Carney responded to ship distress calls and provided assistance, shooting down multiple air drones that were headed in its direction along the way.

Carney has shot down multiple air drones over the Red Sea in the past six weeks.


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Jono
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04 Dec 2023, 12:48 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Jono wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Jono wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
So, how is getting the ICC going to help beyond prosecuting the current criminals? When being arrested for the 'cause' may elevate them to a political prisoner status. And the free ones will fall in line to fill their shoes again and again, on both sides.


Because, it's not being held accountable that has allowed this thing to continue in the first place. Plus, the UN needs to get more actively involved. We need a UN peacekeeping force there in order to replace the Israeli forces in the interim. First in order to stop terrorism and secondly to stop the settler violence, which the Israeli forces are actually currently supporting.


The UN force has been tried and they left as soon as requested for understandable reasons. As far as the ICC is concerned what are they going do, invade Israel and arrest Netanyahu’s government, the top brass of the IDF, as well as settlement leaders?

It will be up to the Israelis. Jews being a small minority in this world and having been persecuted for centuries are loathe take actions that would result in a civil war.


The last time that UN peacekeeping forces were there was between the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948 and the six-day war in 1967. Now the circumstances are different considering that both Egypt and Jordan have peace treaties with Israel, so the main threat to Israel now is either from Iranian proxies or from Palestinian armed groups. There are unlikely to be invasions from neighbouring Arab nations that caused the UN forces to leave in the first place.

The way way that ICC arrest warrants are supposed to work is that all signatories to the Rome Statute would be obliged to arrest the person under warrant if they step foot in their territories, diplomatic immunity does not apply. Unfortunately, there have been problems with this like when South Africa refused to arrest Omar Al Bashir when he came to attend an African Union summit in South Africa but that creates political problems for the countries to do that. Netanyahu would not be able to leave Israel if there was ICC arrest warrant for him, just like how it's risky for Putin to leave Russia now.


The peacekeeping forces would be between various Palestinian groups and Israel.


Isn't that the whole point? The point of them being there is to help prevent future terror attacks on Israel as well as stop settler violence from Israeli settlers. They'll be able to demilitarise the Palestinian areas so to stop rocket attacks as well.



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04 Dec 2023, 6:26 am

Jono wrote:
Isn't that the whole point? The point of them being there is to help prevent future terror attacks on Israel as well as stop settler violence from Israeli settlers. They'll be able to demilitarise the Palestinian areas so to stop rocket attacks as well.


I would assume they would not demilitarize and but be a buffer. Either way the idea is the same, as soon as the Israelis or the Palestinians decide it is not in their interest to have them around they will be requested or intimidated into leaving.


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04 Dec 2023, 8:26 am

These people needed UN troops long ago..! everybody knew it . But since the USA controls the the UN ,OFFICES based out of NewYork, USA .The joke here is the country of Israel has rentacles " so deep" in the USA that it is not in
the interest of Israel , to show , or admit ,that they are so out of control of the situation, to the rest of the World.
That they cannot justifiably handle their own borders .....And of Course, imho that Israel controls our US congress.
So the notion that The UN will come in the maintain humanitarian circumstances . Is just false flag , buncha
rethoric again. :)


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04 Dec 2023, 1:02 pm

I think there were reasons for putting the UN HQ in NYC. Other world capitals were recovering from WWII and the US was recognized as a leading nation at the time. That said, I see no reason to think that the US controls the UN, in fact the US has probably come close to being kicked out more than once.

As for Israel controlling the US Congress, there are many powerful lobbies influencing Congress. The pro-Israel lobby is one of them, but there are many others. You could argue that the pro-Israel lobby is too powerful, but then you could just as easily say the same about those other lobbies. Saying that one lobby literally controls the whole shooting match would require one to be inspired by antisemitic thinking if not an actual antisemite.

As for the relationship between the US and Israeli governments, consider this article from a source that is neither Jewish, Muslim, or Christian.
Why does the U.S. always back Israel? (The Hindu)


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04 Dec 2023, 10:14 pm

Jakki wrote:
And of Course, imho that Israel controls our US congress.

This is an updated version of classic anti-Jewish conspiracy theories.

Israel does not control the U.S. government, although I can see why it might seem that way.

Here in the U.S.A., we have a very strong, well-organized pro-Zionist movement, which is backed not just by Jews (both American and Israeli), but also by the much larger number of evangelical Christians who believe in "premillenial dispensationalism." Christian Zionism is actually older than Jewish Zionism.

Also, at various times the alliance between Israel and the U.S.A. has been seen as having important strategic value for the U.S.A.


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