[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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TwilightPrincess
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09 Dec 2023, 11:22 am

Cornflake hasn’t written any antisemitic posts. It would seem that some people equate criticism of the IDF and a concern about human rights with antisemitism. They aren’t the same thing. It’s sort of strange when folks accuse others of antisemitism when they engage in blatant Islamophobia - sometimes in the same post.

No matter how despicably gods behave in ancient holy books, people still need to abide by international humanitarian law both during and outside the current conflict.

It’s hard for a group of people to progress when they’ve been torn from their land and then systematically oppressed for decades. Yes, it’s more complex than that, but it’s disingenuous to claim that an oppressed group of people is entirely to blame for their struggles.


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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 09 Dec 2023, 12:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Cornflake
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09 Dec 2023, 11:31 am

^ Yes, my bad - I haven't been exclusively posting "Rah rah - go Israel!! :bounce: " so I guess that proves, at least to some it seems, I must be antisemitic.
It's a bit... simplistic, a bit tribal. :roll:

Persephone29 should beware of posting content veering toward personal attacks - and accusing someone of being antisemitic pretty much meets that level.


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09 Dec 2023, 12:21 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Jono wrote:
If you look at my earlier posts in this thread, I did say that we would need a two-state solution to solve the Israel-Palestine conflict long term. However, with regards to current war, I have never seen anyone suggest a viable alternative response to the 7 October attack other than war, neither from people I've argued with in real life or on-line who otherwise have argued that Israel should not be going after Hamas at all. It may be the case that Israel has been contravening international humanitarian law with regards to bombing indiscriminately or not letting aid in but I cannot accept that the proper response to that attack is "turning the other cheek".

Any thoughts about what I suggested in my post here? Israel's extreme, massive, brutal over-reaction is the main issue here. I would not say that Israel shouldn't retaliate at all. Some retaliation was justified, but Israel's response has been vastly disproportionate.


I agree that they could of done more to avoid civilian casualties and I agree with most of that post you point to that Hamas was expecting (and wanted) a brutal reaction from Israel. Though, I don't think that they expected the amount of force that they got.



ASPartOfMe
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09 Dec 2023, 12:38 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Jono wrote:
If you look at my earlier posts in this thread, I did say that we would need a two-state solution to solve the Israel-Palestine conflict long term. However, with regards to current war, I have never seen anyone suggest a viable alternative response to the 7 October attack other than war, neither from people I've argued with in real life or on-line who otherwise have argued that Israel should not be going after Hamas at all. It may be the case that Israel has been contravening international humanitarian law with regards to bombing indiscriminately or not letting aid in but I cannot accept that the proper response to that attack is "turning the other cheek".

Any thoughts about what I suggested in my post here? Israel's extreme, massive, brutal over-reaction is the main issue here. I would not say that Israel shouldn't retaliate at all. Some retaliation was justified, but Israel's response has been vastly disproportionate.


What would be enough retaliation to make Israelis comfortable about returning to both the northern and southern half of Israel? Post 10/7 probably anything short of no Hamas won’t do it. People can say all they want about how Netanyahu actions were a big factor of causing how bad 10/7 was and they would be largely be right but the thing is even the most virulent Netenyahu haters would not have conducted the war much differently then he has after 10/7 for above and historical reasons.

We sitting at our keyboards can discuss all we want the question of should Israel exist as a Jewish country but for the reasons above Israeli Jews with a few exceptions are not going to become anti zionist.

Similar “generational trauma” for the Palestinians. Their strategy was birthed by the Algerians use of terrorism to kick out the French colonists. That strategy has been validated by the Americans giving up in Vietnam, Lebanon, and most recently Afghanistan. And that idea that the colonists will eventually have enough and go back to where they came from is the Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jahid approach to the Jews. Unlike the Palestinians at least some of the Israeli Jews especially the Ashkenazi ones probably could emigrate to America and Europe but due to historical reasons they do not believe that is a long term solution and for religious reasons and that many of them are life long Israelis think of themselves as indigenous.

Two sides that feel that land is theirs combined with fear of losing being the apocalypse are problems that wise diplomats have been trying to solve for over a hundred years. Israel made a horrible choice in how they are conducting this war but is there a lesser evil way? Arguably for the world yes. If you are an Israeli politician or military brass responsible for just Israelis I would love to think so but I just don’t see it.


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Jono
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09 Dec 2023, 1:46 pm

Here is a recent livestream from Atheist Republic, showcasing Arab opposition to Hamas (even from some Gazans during the current war). If you don't have time to watch the whole thing, at least skip to the 1 hour and 11 minute mark because that is where they answer a question posed by me in the live chat regarding the calls for ceasefire and humanitarian situation in Gaza. I don't think that Armin and his guests adequately addressed the fact that not enough humanitarian aid is able to reach the people who need it, but still.



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09 Dec 2023, 2:10 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
That's exactly what they're saying. Imagine being a Palestinian in 1947, you get the notification that based on research (archeological and geographical), the people you hate the most in the whole world are coming back to their ancestral homeland (the land you've been squatting on, for centuries. And also the land you've turned into a dust bowl, fallow, useless, etc); so move over. With it, they bring their G-d, the same G-d that is Allah, but you can't believe it because that G-d chose Isaac over Ishmael, so there MUST be a difference. And the UN draws up a partition between the two.


You lose all credibility when you bring imaginary beings into the discussion and demonstrate such a piss-poor understanding of the history to try to describe the Palestinians as squatters. You vomit up disinformation to justify your hatred, not because it's an accurate picture of the region's history.


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09 Dec 2023, 3:55 pm

Israeli Guards Rape Palestinian Women

Quote:
A Palestinian female freed from Israeli detention said more than 15 fellow Palestinian women were raped by Israeli interrogators to force them to confess to charges leveled against them and collaborate with the Israeli intelligence.

“Israeli investigators and intelligence officers keep video tapes of the raping to blackmail the female detainees,” she told IslamOnline.net, requesting anonymity.

“I have been sexually abused and photographed. When I tried to travel to Jordan after my release and Israeli intelligence officer dumfounded my with the humiliating photos.”

She asserted that this techniques has been used for years by the Israeli interrogators against Palestinian detainees.

“They have used this raping techniques before my detention and continue to use it until today,” said the Palestinian woman who spent nine years of her life in Israeli detention…


Released Palestinians allege abuse in Israeli jails
Quote:
Palestinian prisoners released from Israeli jails say that guards carried out abuse and collective punishment in the weeks after the Hamas attacks on Israel on 7 October.

They have described being hit with sticks, having muzzled dogs set on them, and their clothes, food and blankets taken away.

One female prisoner has said she was threatened with rape, and that guards twice tear-gassed inmates inside the cells.

The BBC spoke to six people in total, all of whom said they were beaten before leaving jail.

The Palestinian Prisoners Society says some guards are alleged to have urinated on handcuffed prisoners. And that six prisoners have died in Israeli custody in the past seven weeks.

Israel says all its prisoners are detained according to the law.

Eighteen-year-old Mohammed Nazzal was one of those released by Israel this week, in exchange for Israeli women and children held hostage by Hamas in Gaza.

He had been held in custody in Nafha Prison without charge since August, and says he does not know why he was arrested.


For some reason we don't call them hostages when Israel takes people without cause. For some reason I'm supposed to get really upset over SA as a weapon when Hamas does it, but ignore it when Israel does it.


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Jono
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09 Dec 2023, 5:14 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Israeli Guards Rape Palestinian Women
Quote:
A Palestinian female freed from Israeli detention said more than 15 fellow Palestinian women were raped by Israeli interrogators to force them to confess to charges leveled against them and collaborate with the Israeli intelligence.

“Israeli investigators and intelligence officers keep video tapes of the raping to blackmail the female detainees,” she told IslamOnline.net, requesting anonymity.

“I have been sexually abused and photographed. When I tried to travel to Jordan after my release and Israeli intelligence officer dumfounded my with the humiliating photos.”

She asserted that this techniques has been used for years by the Israeli interrogators against Palestinian detainees.

“They have used this raping techniques before my detention and continue to use it until today,” said the Palestinian woman who spent nine years of her life in Israeli detention…


Released Palestinians allege abuse in Israeli jails
Quote:
Palestinian prisoners released from Israeli jails say that guards carried out abuse and collective punishment in the weeks after the Hamas attacks on Israel on 7 October.

They have described being hit with sticks, having muzzled dogs set on them, and their clothes, food and blankets taken away.

One female prisoner has said she was threatened with rape, and that guards twice tear-gassed inmates inside the cells.

The BBC spoke to six people in total, all of whom said they were beaten before leaving jail.

The Palestinian Prisoners Society says some guards are alleged to have urinated on handcuffed prisoners. And that six prisoners have died in Israeli custody in the past seven weeks.

Israel says all its prisoners are detained according to the law.

Eighteen-year-old Mohammed Nazzal was one of those released by Israel this week, in exchange for Israeli women and children held hostage by Hamas in Gaza.

He had been held in custody in Nafha Prison without charge since August, and says he does not know why he was arrested.


For some reason we don't call them hostages when Israel takes people without cause. For some reason I'm supposed to get really upset over SA as a weapon when Hamas does it, but ignore it when Israel does it.


So, it's not committed by IDF forces but inside prisons? Doesn't that happen in most prisons around the world though? How is this different from the prison rape statistics in the US?

Again, I'm against people being arbitrarily arrested and being held without charge. Also nobody is saying that you can't be upset about the prison rape and abuse of Palestinians in Israeli prisons but this isn't perpetrated by the Israeli army and to me, it doesn't look different from the prisoner abuse committed in jails throughout the world. Just like when it happens everywhere else though, I agree that it is a violation of human rights and should investigated and incidences reduced.



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09 Dec 2023, 6:30 pm

Jono wrote:
Again, I'm against people being arbitrarily arrested and being held without charge. Also nobody is saying that you can't be upset about the prison rape and abuse of Palestinians in Israeli prisons but this isn't perpetrated by the Israeli army and to me, it doesn't look different from the prisoner abuse committed in jails throughout the world. Just like when it happens everywhere else though, I agree that it is a violation of human rights and should investigated and incidences reduced.


It would seem Israel (since 10-7) is suddenly being held to a higher standard than the governing bodies of Palestine (and it appears everyone else). Prison abuse is horrific but one doesn't have to go to Israel to see examples of this. Prison rape is a massive issue in the USA and has barely been addressed.

Has anyone realistically looked at what Palestinian police/security do to their own people?

Also suddenly drawing attention to detention without trail laws is silly, the Israeli security forces are not the only country who have been doing this for years. When you live in a zone/region constantly subject to terrorist attacks where the terrorists are funded by your neighbours and you can't distinguish who is a terrorist and who isn't.



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10 Dec 2023, 12:22 am

………………………………………Happy CHanukah... :ninja: :jester:…………………………


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10 Dec 2023, 3:30 am

Persephone29 wrote:
I have to remember when I'm writing these diatribes that for the most part, I'm dealing with people who don't believe in God. And that's fine, as long as you remember that you are dealing with two countries that do.

Actually, about half the Jews in Israel are non-religious. (See this news story, for example.)

Israel at its founding was almost completely dominated by nonreligious Jews. Since then the proportion of religious Jews has grown.

Persephone29 wrote:
You are caught up in your advanced notions and definitions of what constitutes 'humanitarian crisis,' when if you read the Old Testament, the God of both the Jews and the Arabs doesn't give two s**ts about any humanitarian crisis. So all this hot air about this and that falls on deaf ears. They BOTH know that when they enter war with each other, the goal is obliteration of the enemy. These people think we're a bunch of dupes because we're in a corner sucking our thumbs and begging for a ceasefire.

The U.S.A. is powerful enough to pressure both sides to negotiate with each other, if only we had the will to do so, as we did back in the 1990's.

Since then, alas, U.S. foreign policy has been dominated by an increasingly powerful Zionist movement, backed not only by many Jews but also by the far more numerous evangelical Christian Zionists. (See my thread about them here.)

However, there are some indications that premillenial dispensationalism -- a popular evangelical Christian interpretation of Biblical prophecy, in which Israel is seen as having a key role -- has already peaked in popularity and is declining. If it declines enough, the U.S.A. might eventually become, once again, capable of a more balanced approach to the Israel/Palestine situation.


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10 Dec 2023, 1:53 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
What would be enough retaliation to make Israelis comfortable about returning to both the northern and southern half of Israel?

Maybe Israel just needs to build more apartment buildings in whatever parts of the country Israelis are relatively comfortable living in currently, and then the population can gradually expand back into the more vulnerable (hence cheaper) areas again when things calm down.

Maybe the Iron Dome and other military defenses need to be expanded too. And maybe Israel needs to start taking reports from its spies more seriously, e.g. if Hamas is observed practicing any given military maneuver, however merely "aspirational" it may seem, IDF needs to practice counter-maneuvers too.

But a messed-up Israeli real estate market is not a valid excuse to slaughter thousands of civilians, or to bomb huge numbers of apartment buildings, in Gaza.


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10 Dec 2023, 3:30 pm

Israeli official calls for burying alive 'subhuman' Palestinian civilians


Quote:
The deputy mayor of the Israeli-run Jerusalem municipality has called for burying alive dozens of civilian Palestinians whom he described as "subhuman".

Arieh King called the unarmed men, who were arbitrarily grabbed from their homes in Gaza by the Israeli army on Thursday, "Nazi Muslims".

"We have to pick up the pace," he said on X, referring to the Israeli army's "elimination" of Palestinians.

King added that if it were up to him, he would have used the D-9 armoured bulldozers to bury the men alive, calling them "ants".

"They are not human beings and not even human animals, they are subhuman and that is how they should be treated," King said.


Image


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10 Dec 2023, 5:35 pm

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"They are not human beings and not even human animals, they are subhuman and that is how they should be treated," King said.
Wasn't this tried before with the most shocking results imaginable?

It's ironic, and beyond disgusting, that this call is made by someone whose compatriots were once on the receiving end of the same thing.


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10 Dec 2023, 5:38 pm

Horrible.
Humans have learned nothing from the past.


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10 Dec 2023, 6:09 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Horrible.
Humans have learned nothing from the past.

And that's why in the long run we're going to unalive ourselves as a species. Too stupid to live.


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