Another Disorder invented to exonerate criminals

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cyberdad
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29 Jan 2024, 9:53 pm

In 2013 with the arrest of Ethan Couch, a wealthy Texas teen, for driving while intoxicated and killing four pedestrians and injuring several others. Testimony from a psychologist in court referred to Couch as having a case of affluenza, sparking a media frenzy and victim family outrage.

Affluenza is defined as unhappiness caused by affluence - used in court to justify homicide

Well....it's happened again
https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... -psychosis
A Thousand Oaks woman who faced the prospect of life in prison if convicted of the stabbing death of a man she was dating was sentenced Tuesday to two years’ probation and 100 hours of community service after arguing that she was on a cannabis-induced psychosis during the killing.

Anyone ever heard of somebody being exonerated for murder from a cannabis induced psychotic episode?? well neither have I. Yet another disorder invented for the courts.



cyberdad
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29 Jan 2024, 10:58 pm

According to psychologist Dr Kris Mohandie - “It was clear that she had no control of her faculties and never intended to cause any harm. All of the medical experts agreed, including the expert called by the district attorney’s office.”

Really? smoking marijuana induce somebody to grab a knife and stab your boyfriend to death 108 times?

This sets a really dangerous precedence



cyberdad
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29 Jan 2024, 11:04 pm

Maybe thousands of people in jail who are incarcerated for alcohol induced DUI who could now argue they took alcohol it induced a alcohol induced psychosis which caused them to not take responsibility for their action.



funeralxempire
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30 Jan 2024, 2:09 am

cyberdad wrote:
Maybe thousands of people in jail who are incarcerated for alcohol induced DUI who could now argue they took alcohol it induced a alcohol induced psychosis which caused them to not take responsibility for their action.


Only if evidence of their psychotic state at the time existed.

It's incredibly rare for the prosecution/DAs to support the idea that a suspect was too disconnected from reality in order to genuinely be responsible for their actions.

Quote:
Shortly after taking a second hit from a bong, Spejcher began “hearing and seeing things that weren’t there” and believing she was dead, and that she had to stab O’Melia in order to bring herself back to life, according to the district attorney’s office.

In her closing statement, Spejcher told the judge, “I wish I could go back in time and prevent this tragedy from happening.


That's an extreme reaction, not at all within the realm of a typical experience involving marijuana intoxication.

If literally everyone including the people who's job it is to build a case against her came to this conclusion it's probably not the wrong one.

The comparison between this and the affluenza case is nonsense. This is a lot more like the Greyhound decapitation incident, only with a different trigger.

She also wasn't exonerated, she was convicted of a lesser offence:

Quote:
After four hours of deliberation, a jury in December found her guilty of involuntary manslaughter — a charge that can carry a four-year prison sentence.

Ventura County Superior Court Judge David Worley, however, opted to sentence her to 100 hours of community service in the form of educating others on marijuana-induced psychosis and two years of formal probation.


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naturalplastic
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30 Jan 2024, 4:14 am

Hmmm....

The word "assassin" derives from the word "hashishin" (someone pumped up on hashish).

In the Arab world in the middle ages assissins would get lit on hashish in order to do their assassinations.

So maybe some strains of modern weed in this new world of legal pot unintentionally mimic the ancient strains of weed smoked by the original "assassins".



blitzkrieg
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30 Jan 2024, 4:21 am

Cannabis, which is a psychoactive compound, can trigger psychosis in susceptible individuals.

I saw a study somewhere/recently that followed cannabis users and compared them with a control population whilst measuring hospital admissions for mental health over a long period of time.

Cannabis users in that study were significantly more likely to admit to inpatient services.

People underestimate the effects of cannabis because it is used safely by many, but there are people who it doesn't agree with.



funeralxempire
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30 Jan 2024, 4:27 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Hmmm....

The word "assassin" derives from the word "hashishin" (someone pumped up on hashish).

In the Arab world in the middle ages assissins would get lit on hashish in order to do their assassinations.

So maybe some strains of modern weed in this new world of legal pot unintentionally mimic the ancient strains of weed smoked by the original "assassins".



Quote:
The word asas in Arabic means "principle". The Asāsiyyūn (plural, from literary Arabic) were, as defined in Arabic, the principle people. The term "assassin" likely has roots in hashshāshīn ("hashish smokers or users"), a mispronunciation of the original Asāsiyyūn, but not a mispronunciation of Assasiyeen (pronounced "Asāsiyyeen", the plural of "Asasi"). Originally referring to the methods of political control exercised by the Assasiyuun, one can see how it became "assassin" in several languages to describe similar activities anywhere.

The Assassins were finally linked by the 19th-century orientalist Silvestre de Sacy to the Arabic word hashish using their variant names assassin and assissini in the 19th century. Citing the example of one of the first written applications of the Arabic term hashish to the Ismailis by 13th-century historian Abu Shama, de Sacy demonstrated its connection to the name given to the Ismailis throughout Western scholarship. Following de Sacy's account, various popularizers of the "Hashishi myth" -- including self-proclaimed Sufi scholar Idries Shah (who, in fact, never belonged to any Sufi tariqa nor even graduated from any university) -- continue to pejoratively describe the Assassins (and, by extension, Ismailis in general) as 'druggers' who used hashish "in stupefying candidates for the ephemeral visit to paradise". However, the first known usage of the term hashishi has been traced back to 1122 when the Fatimid caliph al-Amir bi-Ahkami’l-Lah, himself later assassinated, employed it in derogatory reference to the Syrian. Used figuratively, the term hashishi connoted meanings such as outcasts or rabble. Without actually accusing the group of using the hashish drug, the caliph used the term in a pejorative manner. This label was quickly adopted by anti-Isma'ili historians and applied to the Isma'ilis of Syria and Persia. The spread of the term was further facilitated through military encounters, whose chroniclers adopted the term and disseminated it across Europe. To Crusaders, the Fedayeen concept of valuing a principle above your own life was alien to them, so they rationalized it using myths such as the 'paradise legend', the 'leap of faith' legend, and the 'hashish legend', sewn together in the writings of Marco Polo.
...
The name "Assassin" is often said to derive from the Arabic word Hashishin or "users of hashish", which was originally applied to the Assassins Isma'ilis by the rival Mustali Isma'ilis during the fall of the Isma'ili Fatimid Empire and the separation of the two Isma'ili streams. There is little evidence hashish was used to motivate the Assassins, contrary to the beliefs of their Medieval enemies. It is possible that the term hashishiyya or hashishi in Arabic sources was used metaphorically in its abusive sense relating to use of hashish, which due to its effects on the mind state is outlawed in Islam. Modern versions of this word include Mahashish used in the same derogatory sense, albeit less offensive nowadays, as the use of the substance is more widespread. The term hashashin was (and still is) used to describe absent minded criminals and is used derogatorily in all the Muslim sources referring to the Assassins as such.


It sounds like the connection with hashish is largely a slander from their opponents, with the original meaning being closer to 'the principled', but also unfortunately sounding just like 'the hash smokers'.

It'd be like saying that teabaggers (Tea Party supporters) were named after their fondness for teabagging, when really no, that's just what all of their opponents started making jokes about as soon as they heard of those folks using that name for themselves.


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cyberdad
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30 Jan 2024, 6:20 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
The comparison between this and the affluenza case is nonsense. This is a lot more like the Greyhound decapitation incident, only with a different trigger.

She also wasn't exonerated, she was convicted of a lesser offence:


So a lifetime in jail Vs 2 years supervised probation??

Also read the psychologist report - She did not intend - he is making an interpretation of somebodies intent when they are technically supposed to be having a psychosis

The comparison with the affluenza case is the reduced culpability due to a perceived disorder (go back and read, Affluenza was accepted as a diagnosed disorder). According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorder, Fifth Edition defines the substance-induced psychotic disorder as a psychiatric disease featured by delusions and/or hallucination during or soon after substance intoxication.

Here's the problem. Are we dealing with a sliding scale OR is is all or nothing??
At what point does somebody smoking a bong and then committing a crime not culpable for their actions?



Last edited by cyberdad on 30 Jan 2024, 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
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30 Jan 2024, 6:22 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Here's the problem. Are we dealing with a sliding scale OR is is all or nothing??
At what point does somebody smoking a bong and then committing a crime not culpable for their actions?


When they suffer psychosis as a result.

Because people suffering psychosis are already understood to have diminished culpability.


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cyberdad
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30 Jan 2024, 6:27 pm

According to medical advice
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18788083/

if the (psychosis or) symptoms are believed to arise because of ingesting drugs (an external cause), the offender is generally convicted of the (criminal) offence

People charged with DUI are also culpable because they chose to ingest alcohol and then drive.



funeralxempire
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30 Jan 2024, 6:29 pm

cyberdad wrote:
According to medical advice
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18788083/

if the (psychosis or) symptoms are believed to arise because of ingesting drugs (an external cause), the offender is generally convicted of the (criminal) offence


And she was held guilty of the appropriate criminal offence.

She just wasn't found guilty of the most extreme charge that could possibly be applied.


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cyberdad
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30 Jan 2024, 6:32 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
According to medical advice
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18788083/

if the (psychosis or) symptoms are believed to arise because of ingesting drugs (an external cause), the offender is generally convicted of the (criminal) offence


And she was held guilty of the appropriate criminal offence.

She just wasn't found guilty of the most extreme charge that could possibly be applied.


I think what's confusing is confusing is she chose to take marijuana which induced the psychosis. If you believe the psychologist
a. She had no prior history of altered states from marijuana
b. he deduced her intent under the influence when it would be impossible to gauge how the drug made her grab a knife and kill her boyfriend

Literally hundreds of people running around with a knife after taking drugs are shot by the police. This is confusing to me and probably to the family of the victim.



funeralxempire
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30 Jan 2024, 6:36 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
According to medical advice
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18788083/

if the (psychosis or) symptoms are believed to arise because of ingesting drugs (an external cause), the offender is generally convicted of the (criminal) offence


And she was held guilty of the appropriate criminal offence.

She just wasn't found guilty of the most extreme charge that could possibly be applied.


I think what's confusing is confusing is she chose to take marijuana which induced the psychosis. If you believe the psychologist
a. She had no prior history of altered states from marijuana
b. he deduced her intent under the influence when it would be impossible to gauge how the drug made her grab a knife and kill her boyfriend

Literally hundreds of people running around with a knife after taking drugs are shot by the police. This is confusing to me and probably to the family of the victim.


Police weren't present so how they respond to similar situations when they're physically present isn't relevant to this case.

Further, while we can expect her defence to argue for leniency, why did the prosecution accept that argument and framing unless their own experts conceded it was correct?


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cyberdad
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30 Jan 2024, 6:51 pm

Not sure why the prosecution accepted reduced culpability? the father of the victim clearly disagrees for the same reasons I have put forward



funeralxempire
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30 Jan 2024, 6:55 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Not sure why the prosecution accepted reduced culpability? the father of the victim clearly disagrees for the same reasons I have put forward


Probably because once their expert was aligned with the position that the suspect was clearly suffering psychosis that they weren't going to get a conviction on the most serious charge, so they went for what would stick.


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cyberdad
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30 Jan 2024, 7:16 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Not sure why the prosecution accepted reduced culpability? the father of the victim clearly disagrees for the same reasons I have put forward


Probably because once their expert was aligned with the position that the suspect was clearly suffering psychosis that they weren't going to get a conviction on the most serious charge, so they went for what would stick.


Yes because the prosecution were intimidated by the psychologists comment that Bryn has reduced culpability due to
a. not being in control of her faculties
b, not having intent

While a. is reasonable what is confusing is b., how can intent be inferred from somebody without proper evidence