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bee33
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13 Mar 2024, 5:02 am

There's no strategic justification for what is quite possibly the most horrific tragic event in human history.

The studies done have mostly come to the conclusion that it did not deter an even greater number of deaths, but regardless something so horrific cannot be justified by any speculative outcome.

It's our moral responsibility to decry what was done.



QuantumChemist
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13 Mar 2024, 7:54 am

cyberdad wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Can't we just admit that the US really screwed the world over in the longrun by intoducing the atom bomb into the world and making us all less safe?


I think the original plan was to use against the Nazis. You have to remember the Germans were on the verge of developing a nuclear bomb so technically the US had no choice. Infact the Manhattan project was funded eight months after the allies declared war in Germany and long before Pearl Harbour.


Correct, the Nazi government was actively seeking a way to build a nuclear weapon. However, most oft the best German scientists were Jewish, so they left the country due to persecution reasons. The rest that were left continued to work on the project, but were blocked by strategic allied interferences. Germany lost their main supply of heavy water in one of those raids in Norway. Without a moderator, it is much harder to control the process.

A little historical piece often lost to time: Germany did attempt to sent over their collection of processed uranium oxide (not enriched) to Japan right before the Nazi government fell. The captain of the submarine U-234 decided to surrender to US forces off the Eastern coast of the US. He had heard radio broadcasts of the surrender of Germany. The Japanese officers aboard decided to commit suicide rather than be taken by the US forces. That shipment was intended to make a weapon in Japan to use on Allied forces later on. Every country who fought (either side) is guilty by proxy in wanting to play nuclear war in WWII.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234



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13 Mar 2024, 10:05 am

It was a scandal that Barbie was not awarded. If the producers had shown suicidal bravery, and total commitment to gaining an award, could it have been a greater travesty? I think not.



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13 Mar 2024, 10:08 am

The Oscar award celebrates the movie about the man. Not the man himself. Nor the bomb he created.

As Jakki said its shows his guilt about it. Thats why the book upon which the movie was based is called "American Prometheus". Prometheseus was the demigod in Greek mythology who stole fire from the Gods and gave it it Mankind...and then was punished by the God by being chained to rock and having his innards eaten out by ravens.


This may sound petty...if any living Japanese has a problem with the film...ask them if they would rather see a movie about the 1937 "Rape of Nanking" in which the Japanese army massacred more Chinese civilians than the number of Japanese civilians who would later die at Hiroshima and Nagasaki COMBINED. Like a half of a million. "Would you be more 'comfortable' with that movie?".



cyberdad
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13 Mar 2024, 3:42 pm

bee33 wrote:
The studies done have mostly come to the conclusion that it did not deter an even greater number of deaths,


We actually will never know? The emperor (who held a revered god like status with the Japanese people in 1945) was quite capable of ordering every man, woman and child in Japan to commit "seppeku" rather than surrender to the invading US forces. Their is was a cultural element here revolving around honour which did not apply to the Germans.

Potentially the death toll might have exceeded millions including untold dead American troops. It's easy today to take a high moral ground but back then there were likely 1-2 million American mothers of soldiers who probably uttered a sigh of relief when the Japanese emperor surrendered after seeing what an atomic bomb could do.

You have to remember even though it was used, its implementation was meant to deter the war crazy emperor from continuing the war.



cyberdad
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13 Mar 2024, 3:44 pm

QuantumChemist wrote:
A little historical piece often lost to time: Germany did attempt to sent over their collection of processed uranium oxide (not enriched) to Japan right before the Nazi government fell. The captain of the submarine U-234 decided to surrender to US forces off the Eastern coast of the US. He had heard radio broadcasts of the surrender of Germany. The Japanese officers aboard decided to commit suicide rather than be taken by the US forces. That shipment was intended to make a weapon in Japan to use on Allied forces later on. Every country who fought (either side) is guilty by proxy in wanting to play nuclear war in WWII.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234


That in itself should be made into a movie.



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13 Mar 2024, 3:50 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
This may sound petty...if any living Japanese has a problem with the film...ask them if they would rather see a movie about the 1937 "Rape of Nanking" in which the Japanese army massacred more Chinese civilians than the number of Japanese civilians who would later die at Hiroshima and Nagasaki COMBINED. Like a half of a million. "Would you be more 'comfortable' with that movie?".


I believe the Japanese government has never officially taken responsibility for the acts of the Japanese imperial army in China or elsewhere. Therefore a movie about Nanking would be classified as "fiction" if it was showed in Japan (and that's if it was allowed to be shown).

The culture in Japan is somewhat "bipolar" when it comes to these things. Despite the fallout from Hiroshima and Nagasaki the Japanese invested in nuclear power (that hasn't always worked out when you think of Fukushima). They are also heavily into conservation and protecting the natural environment (Japan is a role model here) but they also allow killing of endangered whales and dolphins for Sushi. They are one of the most strict regimented and obedient societies in the world (again role models for many) but permit an age of consent which is 12. Nothing is ever straight forward or easily explainable in that country.



cyberdad
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13 Mar 2024, 3:55 pm

bee33 wrote:
.
It's our moral responsibility to decry what was done.


Yeah I do agree we need to take what happened as a lesson to justify removing nucleat war heads from the world. I am still annoyed by the French government who really had no reason to test nuclear bombs in the pristine waters of the Pacific ocean likely poisoning thousands of square km around Biknini atoll for no real constructive purpose.



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13 Mar 2024, 3:56 pm

I think that everyone forgets that Japan was trying to develop an atomic bomb to drop on the US but we beat them to the punch.



QuantumChemist
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13 Mar 2024, 7:49 pm

cyberdad wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
A little historical piece often lost to time: Germany did attempt to sent over their collection of processed uranium oxide (not enriched) to Japan right before the Nazi government fell. The captain of the submarine U-234 decided to surrender to US forces off the Eastern coast of the US. He had heard radio broadcasts of the surrender of Germany. The Japanese officers aboard decided to commit suicide rather than be taken by the US forces. That shipment was intended to make a weapon in Japan to use on Allied forces later on. Every country who fought (either side) is guilty by proxy in wanting to play nuclear war in WWII.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234


That in itself should be made into a movie.


It was made back in 1992. The movie is called “U-234”.

I did a calculation today on the shipment, assuming that it contained only UO3. The 550 kg. Of UO3 could produce approximately 467.7 kg of uranium metal. The isotope separation part is tricky, but can be done with cyclotrons that the Japanese had. It would yield enough U-235 to make at least a few atomic bombs. But, the Japanese did not figure out the trick of gaseous diffusion using UF6 like the US did. It would have taken a much longer time to get the fissionable isotope in a usable amount using their planned method. The US would have likely bombed any plant large enough to do the separation, delaying their progress even more.



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13 Mar 2024, 8:48 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

This may sound petty...if any living Japanese has a problem with the film...ask them if they would rather see a movie about the 1937 "Rape of Nanking" in which the Japanese army massacred more Chinese civilians than the number of Japanese civilians who would later die at Hiroshima and Nagasaki COMBINED. Like a half of a million. "Would you be more 'comfortable' with that movie?".


I read the issue as being less about the movie being made, and more about the psychological impact if they actually were to watch it. I would agree with that caution. Even though the movie does make a point about how humanity ultimately unleashed an uncontrollable force, those living in Japan don't need to be reminded.


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13 Mar 2024, 8:52 pm

Orrr wrote:
It was a scandal that Barbie was not awarded. If the producers had shown suicidal bravery, and total commitment to gaining an award, could it have been a greater travesty? I think not.


Honestly, I was surprised Barbie was nominated. Fun movie, very cleverly done, but not among the best I've ever seen.

I haven't seen "American Fiction," but I know several people who think that movie should have won. Although they also knew it had about no chance of actually doing so.


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cyberdad
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14 Mar 2024, 4:03 am

QuantumChemist wrote:
I did a calculation today on the shipment, assuming that it contained only UO3. The 550 kg. Of UO3 could produce approximately 467.7 kg of uranium metal. The isotope separation part is tricky, but can be done with cyclotrons that the Japanese had. It would yield enough U-235 to make at least a few atomic bombs. But, the Japanese did not figure out the trick of gaseous diffusion using UF6 like the US did. It would have taken a much longer time to get the fissionable isotope in a usable amount using their planned method. The US would have likely bombed any plant large enough to do the separation, delaying their progress even more.


This is certainly one occasion the world can thank American ingenuity. Otherwise I would be speaking to you in Japanese and you would be speaking to back to me in German.



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14 Mar 2024, 7:35 am

cyberdad wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
I did a calculation today on the shipment, assuming that it contained only UO3. The 550 kg. Of UO3 could produce approximately 467.7 kg of uranium metal. The isotope separation part is tricky, but can be done with cyclotrons that the Japanese had. It would yield enough U-235 to make at least a few atomic bombs. But, the Japanese did not figure out the trick of gaseous diffusion using UF6 like the US did. It would have taken a much longer time to get the fissionable isotope in a usable amount using their planned method. The US would have likely bombed any plant large enough to do the separation, delaying their progress even more.


This is certainly one occasion the world can thank American ingenuity. Otherwise I would be speaking to you in Japanese and you would be speaking to back to me in German.


Not quite right, Germany and Japan would have went to war with each other eventually if their side won the war. Both had a superiority complex and wanted world domination. They only tolerated each other together in the war to get other countries off of their backs for a while. By dividing the world like they did, they could push two fronts of attack rather than one at a time. The real question would really be which country would win in a one on one war of Japan vs. Germany. Both were ruthless and committed numerous war crimes against innocent civilians. Hard to say which country would have really won in that situation. Either way, everyone else would have lost.



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14 Mar 2024, 4:41 pm

QuantumChemist wrote:
Not quite right, Germany and Japan would have went to war with each other eventually if their side won the war. Both had a superiority complex and wanted world domination. They only tolerated each other together in the war to get other countries off of their backs for a while. By dividing the world like they did, they could push two fronts of attack rather than one at a time. The real question would really be which country would win in a one on one war of Japan vs. Germany. Both were ruthless and committed numerous war crimes against innocent civilians. Hard to say which country would have really won in that situation. Either way, everyone else would have lost.


Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo basically divided the world into three zones. Keep in mind Adolph had no interest in the tropics. He wanted lebensraum for pure Germans to occupy so was focused on clearing out Russia/Siberia for that purpose.

He was,however, uncomfortable about Australia (where i live) been given to the Japanese because at the time there were German immigrants living here. I think Ribbentrop (Hitler's foreign minister) compromised and asked for the island of Tasmania as a safe zone for Australian Germans to live. India would also have caused conflict as he gave Japan that region but was concurrently working with the Indian independence movement to fight the British. Hence why the Japanese attacked borders of eastern India and Churchill famously withdrew supplies from India to feed British troops resulting in mass starvation.

Not the first time, the pope did the same back in the 1500s when Portugal and Spain drew a line on the map of the globe dividing colonies of the new world, Asia and Africa between them.



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14 Mar 2024, 8:04 pm

Now that I've read this article. I have mixed feelings about Oppenheimer winning Oscar for best movie. I have a soft spot for Japan and her people and if the Sweet Peas of today's Japan are upset about it, so am I.


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