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slowmutant
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21 Apr 2008, 12:30 pm

Flowers and peace signs would have worked, yes. Not actual flowerd or actual peace-signs mind you, but the simple desire for peace. No one during the Rwandan Genocide had that desire, and that's why history will remember it for what it was.

And you wonder why Canada wouldn't go to Iraq?



Dox47
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21 Apr 2008, 3:00 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Flowers and peace signs would have worked, yes. Not actual flowerd or actual peace-signs mind you, but the simple desire for peace. No one during the Rwandan Genocide had that desire, and that's why history will remember it for what it was.

And you wonder why Canada wouldn't go to Iraq?


Now we're on to a whole different idea. Theoretically, if everyone had the desire for peace, guns wouldn't be a problem because no one would want to use them on each other. Gun laws would become unnecessary, and people like me would be free to punch holes in paper or go hunting without reams of regulations. However, this being the real world and all, that is not the case. The truth of the matter is, prohibition has never worked for ANY item. Every time it has been tried, it has simply driven the price of the prohibited item up, and enriched the criminal gangs that do the supplying. If you want to argue about blood on the hands, look at the people who enact prohibitory laws, with the ensuing deaths and violence in the now illegal trade of said item.



slowmutant
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21 Apr 2008, 3:15 pm

Dox47 wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Flowers and peace signs would have worked, yes. Not actual flowerd or actual peace-signs mind you, but the simple desire for peace. No one during the Rwandan Genocide had that desire, and that's why history will remember it for what it was.

And you wonder why Canada wouldn't go to Iraq?


Now we're on to a whole different idea. Theoretically, if everyone had the desire for peace, guns wouldn't be a problem because no one would want to use them on each other. Gun laws would become unnecessary, and people like me would be free to punch holes in paper or go hunting without reams of regulations. However, this being the real world and all, that is not the case. The truth of the matter is, prohibition has never worked for ANY item. Every time it has been tried, it has simply driven the price of the prohibited item up, and enriched the criminal gangs that do the supplying. If you want to argue about blood on the hands, look at the people who enact prohibitory laws, with the ensuing deaths and violence in the now illegal trade of said item.


If the people of prohibitory laws didn't enact them and there were no reams of regulation, no prohibited items, we'd be living in Charlton Heston Gun Land. Which would do a rapid-dissolve into Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.

Some people find drug-laws to be a pain in the a$$, so should we throw them out the window? I dunno. Liquor laws can be a buzzkill, as well. Out the window? Why not?! Plagiarism laws, defamation laws, malpractise litigation. Out, out, out! While we're at it, let's get rid of every law regarding prostitution and underage sex!

F**ck it all.



CityAsylum
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21 Apr 2008, 4:14 pm

When the concept of the "Right to Bear Arms" was formulated, assault weapons, which serve no other purpose than to inflict speedy, massive damage, and probably death, did not exist.

With my clean record, I can walk into a store in another state today and buy a Glock without any problem at all. But how can the seller of the gun be certain that I am not the next lunatic about to snap and mow down everyone in sight? How can anyone presume to know that I am skilled enough to point the thing at the random mugger that may scare me into pulling it out, and not hit the people standing nearby?

The bigger question is, why should someone like me even need a Glock? To kill rattlesnakes, maybe?

There has to be an intelligent balance between having access to basic weapons to protect one's home and family, and having gun ownership completely unregulated - there ARE grey areas.

The problem with this issue is that it has become so all-or-nothing; the NRA is consistent in its position that there be no moderation whatsoever, and that no limitation be placed on the purchase or use of any type of gun. Heston, even before his illness, never showed any inclination to even consider sensible regulation in any form.

The guy can rest in peace, but the cause to which he was so devoted needs to be kicked around a little bit.



slowmutant
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21 Apr 2008, 4:49 pm

Hear, hear! :)



CityAsylum
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21 Apr 2008, 5:02 pm

Thank you, slowmutant :D
Your comments on guns are well put!



GoatOnFire
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21 Apr 2008, 5:06 pm

I watched Bowling for Columbine. Even Michael Moore hit on that Canada has more guns per capita than the US but still has only a fraction of the gun related homicides. Guns aren't necessarily the problem.

Our right to bear arms really isn't any other countries' business.


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slowmutant
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21 Apr 2008, 5:20 pm

Not the problem? Guns are sure as hell not the solution.

It's the culture differences between the US and Canada that make the difference, I think. Up here, there isn't that kind of major firearm fetish. Canadian films rarely feature guns. Ditto for Canadian TV. (Canadian film and TV are both sh*t, but that's a different story.) Given the phallic shape of the gun and it's raw destructive power, sex & death could not be closer in the subconscious mind.



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21 Apr 2008, 6:40 pm

CityAsylum wrote:
With my clean record, I can walk into a store in another state today and buy a Glock without any problem at all. But how can the seller of the gun be certain that I am not the next lunatic about to snap and mow down everyone in sight? How can anyone presume to know that I am skilled enough to point the thing at the random mugger that may scare me into pulling it out, and not hit the people standing nearby?

The bigger question is, why should someone like me even need a Glock? To kill rattlesnakes, maybe?


Actually, that is absolutely not true. If you were to attempt to buy a pistol in another state the holder of the Federal Firearms License would refuse to sell it to you. The reason is because it is a violation of Federal Law for any FFL to sell a pistol to an out of state resident. A person can buy a long gun in a state that is not their state of residence, but only if that gun is one that would be legally available within their state of residence. Because it is difficult for any FFL holder to stay apprised of the Laws that are in effect in states other than their own it is common practice for FFL's to insist that long guns be shipped to an FFL in the buyers state for Transfer.

Furthermore if you lie on a BATFE Form 4473 either as a strawman buyer or for yourself the Penalties are up to 10 years in Prison and a $250000 fine.

CityAsylum, you live in NYC so the question about whether or not you need a Glock or any other gun is moot. Back 1911 a corrupt Tammany Hall politician named Timothy Sullivan ramrodded a law named for himself through the Legislature that effectively keeps you from having a gun anyway. So how has that worked out CityAsylum? Did the Bigwigs of New York make you and everyone else safer for the last 97 years? Or has New York City been a cesspool of Organized Crime, dirty cops (ever heard of Frank Serpico?), bought Politicians (Mario Biaggi) and rampart street crime since then?

Yeah I can see why you have so much faith in Government looking out for you CityAsylum, they have done good so far.



CityAsylum
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21 Apr 2008, 6:54 pm

velodog wrote:
Actually, that is absolutely not true. If you were to attempt to buy a pistol in another state the holder of the Federal Firearms License would refuse to sell it to you. The reason is because it is a violation of Federal Law for any FFL to sell a pistol to an out of state resident.

:D You've totally skirted the issue and gone off on a tangent, simply because I personally live in New York at this time. Furthermore, it is clearly lost on you that I am NOT the one you have to worry about, anyway.

As a Foreign Service kid stationed in the Washington, DC area for many years of my life, and as property owner in the state of Virginia, I can assure you that my brothers and I were able to go into the Davis Gun Shop in Falls Church, VA, a popular place at the time, and buy whatever we liked.

Today, the only restriction on, say, my brother, who still lives in the state, is that he may buy only one gun every 30 days.

So, now that you no longer have to worry about me and the dreadful state of New York, let me ask you this: How much do you trust my brother?



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21 Apr 2008, 7:03 pm

If your brother is legal to buy the gun of his choice,I don't care if he does so. Every point that I made about the City of New York disarming their citizens, while giving free run of the City to various strains of Organized and street criminals through rampant Police and Political corruption is still correct. Are you going to ignore that? Or the fact that New Yorks laws have only disarmed the law abiding people.



CityAsylum
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21 Apr 2008, 7:19 pm

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If your brother is legal to buy the gun of his choice,I don't care if he does so. Every point that I made about the City of New York disarming their citizens, while giving free run of the City to various strains of Organized and street criminals through rampant Police and Political corruption is still correct. Are you going to ignore that? Or the fact that New Yorks laws have only disarmed the law abiding people.

Nope, I'm not ignoring any of it. If you read what I actually said, I am not objecting to gun ownership - did you read the part about my brothers and me going into gun shops? Or the part about gun ownership to protect family and property? I'm fine with it.

What I object to is that gun zealots tend to go off on rampages that do not allow room for discussion about how and why people acquire arms, and unfortunately, a lot of those guns that come from 'easy' states end up in the streets of my city for the very reasons you and I are both mentioning: it is easy to buy guns in states like Virginia, and impossible to buy them in NYC.

I'd like to see it legal to buy guns everywhere, WITHIN REASON, so that the guns that ARE out there can be traced back to reliable owners. I also believe that neither you nor I are better off because my brother can buy a Glock tomorrow, because I can't think of a single good reason why he would need THAT type of gun.

My point was that many gun owners are so hysterical that they are unable to hear what people are saying to them, and totally unwilling to discuss REASONABLE gun laws that benefit everyone - your diatribe proves my point. :wink:



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21 Apr 2008, 7:44 pm

CityAsylum wrote:
velodog wrote:
If your brother is legal to buy the gun of his choice,I don't care if he does so. Every point that I made about the City of New York disarming their citizens, while giving free run of the City to various strains of Organized and street criminals through rampant Police and Political corruption is still correct. Are you going to ignore that? Or the fact that New Yorks laws have only disarmed the law abiding people.

Nope, I'm not ignoring any of it. If you read what I actually said, I am not objecting to gun ownership - did you read the part about my brothers and me going into gun shops? Or the part about gun ownership to protect family and property? I'm fine with it.

What I object to is that gun zealots tend to go off on rampages that do not allow room for discussion about how and why people acquire arms, and unfortunately, a lot of those guns that come from 'easy' states end up in the streets of my city for the very reasons you and I are both mentioning: it is easy to buy guns in states like Virginia, and impossible to buy them in NYC.

1) The black market you refer to was created by gun banners. Absolutists who allow no one outside of their politically connected circle to even own guns. Charlie Schumer is one of these that believes that others should not have guns, but he should. Why would the NRA, or anyone else deal with that mentality in good faith? In what way has Schumer or Ted Kennedy ever indicated that they will ever stop pushing to ban every gun there is?

I'd like to see it legal to buy guns everywhere, WITHIN REASON, so that the guns that ARE out there can be traced back to reliable owners. I also believe that neither you nor I are better off because my brother can buy a Glock tomorrow, because I can't think of a single good reason why he would need THAT type of gun.

2) Why is a Glock worse than a 1911, or a Walther or anything else? As far as need, where does that even come into the discussion? That's like saying someone should demonstrate a need to vote, or have an online blog.

My point was that many gun owners are so hysterical that they are unable to hear what people are saying to them, and totally unwilling to discuss REASONABLE gun laws that benefit everyone - your diatribe proves my point. :wink:


3) Hypothetically, would you accept the current Laws of Nevada, nationwide with a stipulation of no more Gun Bans period?! By the way, what is reasonable to you, and how will you sell that to Sarah Brady?



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21 Apr 2008, 8:24 pm

a) I only mentioned a Glock as an example. I think Glocks are pretty amazing, as are many 9mm semi-automatics. I actually am interested in guns. However, I would rather people not be able to lay their hands on them so easily, and without accountability.

b) I also mentioned that I have a problem with the BANNING of guns in NYC, because it created more problems than it could ever have 'cured', so I'm not sure why you think I hold my state's laws up as a model, simply because I live here.

c) Nevada's gun laws are complex, and I'm flattered that you are interested in my opinion :wink: , but which part of it are you for or against? Do you, across-the-board, support their gun laws, or are you against them?

d) I am not interested in selling gun theory, or even bushels of clams, to Sarah Brady.

My point remains, I would like to see the NRA drop some of its noisy sloganeering and become a group that is more capable of having reasonable discussions on how to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals. Pretty simple, huh?

Pertinent to this thread, Heston has always come across as a menacing and narrow-minded zealot, which has not made the NRA look great to a large number of people; to others, you among them, I imagine, he is (oops, was :lol: ) a hero.

You really should not let my opinions on gun safety bother you so much - they matter not a whit. You are going to keep believing what you like, and I will continue believing what I think is right. :D



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22 Apr 2008, 1:11 am

The reason that the NRA (past member) has adopted such an all or nothing attitude has more to do with the way they are attacked and demonized by groups opposed to them. If you want to see unreasonableness, go check out the Brady Campaign or Handgun Control. To them, anything with a semi-automatic action or removable clip is an "assault weapon". Getting on the NRA for not giving an inch is like getting on the Israelis for being paranoid. When the stated goal of your enemies is your complete and utter destruction (or the destruction of your way of life), not giving an inch seems a lot more reasonable. Quite frankly, guns seem to bring out the unreasonableness in people on both sides of the debate. Personally, I do tend to base a lot of my voting on the gun issue, because I view it as easier to teach some Neanderthal the need for social services, than to educate an anti-gun zealot on why they are wrong.



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22 Apr 2008, 5:06 am

slowmutant wrote:
Some people find drug-laws to be a pain in the a$$, so should we throw them out the window? I dunno. Liquor laws can be a buzzkill, as well. Out the window? Why not?! Plagiarism laws, defamation laws, malpractise litigation. Out, out, out! While we're at it, let's get rid of every law regarding prostitution and underage sex!

F**ck it all.


You're missing the point and distorting what I said. What I'm saying is that prohibition has never worked, no matter what the item being prohibited is. I'm sure that the people pushing for various prohibitions were/are well meaning enough, but applying the same logic as your statements about the NRA, they are responsible for the ensuing crime jumps related to their sponsored laws. No where did I state that ALL laws should go, that would anarchy (see: Africa). Having seen photos of shop made Sten gun clones confiscated from the IRA, I can tell you with some authority that blanket laws will never prevent weapons from falling into the hands of criminals. I happen to feel that guns on the whole do more good than harm. Like everything else in life, they are a trade off, some people use them for good, some for bad. Coming back to the prohibition metaphor, alcohol is involved in over 60% of homicides, and 75% of non-fatal stabbings. We tried banning it once, see how well that worked? Same thing with drugs, I can make 1 phone call and have a variety of illegal drugs delivered to my house. How much violence do you think the drug trade causes? Would it cause less suffering if it was legal? Countries like the Netherlands seem to bear out that it would. If you really care about saving lives, lobby to legalize drugs, it would do a lot more good than trying to legislate my guns to death.