Air Marshal shoots and kills suspect

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Ladysmokeater
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12 Dec 2005, 8:56 am

Remnant wrote:
Frankly, I do not care what you think of my "ignorance." The world was a dangerous place before 9/11, and our own actions are making it a more dangerous place after 9/11.


No more dangerous now than before. We are just more aware of it.



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12 Dec 2005, 8:57 am

Laz wrote:
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Terrorists are nothing but mindless soldiers of powerful people that want more power and money


Holy sh** the spanish conquistadors were terrorists :lol:

The british army are terrorists :lol:

Every colonial power in history were terrorists

Thats scary man, a dam* conspiracy those al quidea guys probably have a secret orbital base like in that james bond film moonraker 8O

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The first acts of bioterror were hurling desesed bodies over the walls of a castle during a seige to infect the folks with in.....



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12 Dec 2005, 9:32 am

Ladysmokeater wrote:
The first acts of bioterror were hurling desesed bodies over the walls of a castle during a seige to infect the folks with in.....


Yep. And during the American Revolutionary War, blankets that had been infected with the smallpox virus (horrible fever, rash, about 330% die...) were used as bioterrorist weapons by the British army. Bioterrorism is nothing new, folks. :|


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Remnant
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12 Dec 2005, 10:21 am

Ladysmokeater wrote:
Remnant wrote:
Frankly, I do not care what you think of my "ignorance." The world was a dangerous place before 9/11, and our own actions are making it a more dangerous place after 9/11.


No more dangerous now than before. We are just more aware of it.


Millions of people now have a lot more reason to do us in. That is dangerous.



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12 Dec 2005, 1:24 pm

They had the reason before, thats why 9-11 happened in the first place.



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12 Dec 2005, 8:16 pm

Ladysmokeater wrote:
They had the reason before, thats why 9-11 happened in the first place.


The Sunnis used to like us. Now US-sponsored Shiites in Iraq are torturing and murdering them. Now the Sunnis hate us.

Can't you see where this is going? Criminal behavior that is inspired by an attack like 9/11 is still criminal behavior. We are not excused. We, the US, have licensed ourselves to go around killing everything that looks like it might be a terrorist. It doesn't become right because of 9/11. It doesn't even become necessary. We are flailing around like loose machine guns with the triggers stuck on.

All of a sudden the peaceful solution is something crazy. There is something wrong with people who want to think before they act. Paranoia is public policy. We become blind to the destruction that we are doing to ourselves and others. We are forcing the world to regard us as mad dogs who may have to be stopped by force. On top of that, we have lost ourselves.

How can I convince you to see that this is a sickness? We are scratching open our own wounds and spreading an infection. We are not trying to heal. We are hurting ourselves worse trying to "get even." We aren't becoming stronger internally. We're even destroying people who would help us heal.

9/11 was four years ago. Get over it!



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13 Dec 2005, 7:13 am

Remnant wrote:

All of a sudden the peaceful solution is something crazy. There is something wrong with people who want to think before they act. Paranoia is public policy. We become blind to the destruction that we are doing to ourselves and others. We are forcing the world to regard us as mad dogs who may have to be stopped by force. On top of that, we have lost ourselves.

How can I convince you to see that this is a sickness? We are scratching open our own wounds and spreading an infection. We are not trying to heal. We are hurting ourselves worse trying to "get even." We aren't becoming stronger internally. We're even destroying people who would help us heal.

9/11 was four years ago. Get over it!


peaceful policies wont apply to the zelots. Maybe to reasonable people, but not the zelots that are raised to hate the free world from the time they are born. They know no different. Just as you know the sky to be blue, they are taught that Americans are evil because of the freedoms we take for granted.... Its not just that the people that are being capped are thought to be terrorists, its that they pose a danger to the public around then at the time and in such a way that instant action is nessassary to prevent a problem. If the police tell a suspect, in ANY ARENA, to "stop and turn around slowly" and they reach into a bag as if to retreve a weapon or they run and do the same the police are going to shoot them. And well they should. The preception of threat in many situations is enough to validate a shoot.
Lets say, just for arguments sake, that you robbed a bank. You are running out of the bank with a bag and a street patrolman yells "stop! police" or what ever.... You dont stop you run. He would go after you but not likely to shoot. But if you reached into that bag as if to retreave a weapon, the police officer would have the right to fire in defense. Lets say, again for argument sake, you did have a gun and the officer waited to see what it was you were puling out of the bag before firing a shot. You get a shot off first, miss the cop, and hit a bystander. that bystander was a nun, a baby, the mayor, me, what ever.... That police officer is now could be held lible and sued for not taking that shot (assuming it was a good shot, and he/she knew saw the gun clearly etc) but if the officer takes the shot, and caps you the robber that was only getting a cell phone while running from the police, well then the cop is branded a "killer" and maybe proscuted....
Wow, talk about a rock and a hard place. All that takes place in LESS than 2 seconds!! !! And that is a standard example of a training drill. Now factor in the possibility of that person having a bomb that could kill more than the one or two one bullet could. Think of the same robber who shouts "I have a bomb" on a busy street, public building, or what ever. The robber reaches into the bag to detonate the explosive. the police officer hesitates, perhaps hundreds of lives are lost, the officer takes the shot, and averts what in those TWO CRITICAL seconds looked like a terrorist attack. (BTW, terrorists arent just religious zelots, they are enviromental activists, and so on)
The judgment of those officers has to do with hundreds and thousands of hours of training and years on the streets. Its not just that we are scared of terrorists, the prociedure hadnt changed from the pre 9-11 days. The air marshals have been around, although in smaller force, since before 9-11. police officers have patroled the united states since before the constitution. And the judgment of these brave souls is what means the difference between life and death every single day.
As dreadful as it may sound, the streets of the "anytown" are a war-zone waiting to happen every single day. We dont have the black hats and the white hats to tell the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. We only have a bank of training and experience to draw from that tells us if something is wrong, and how to act. That decision has to take place in seconds.
Forget 9-11? Get over it? surely you are in jest my friend. As anyone that is a student of history knows that it is when we forget our past that we are doomed to repete the mistakes again in the future.

If you want to show that this is a "sickness" go on a ride along with your local police dept for a week in the worst parts of your area. If you cant see even in a mere 5 days that the law enforcement's job is what I described above, Ill politly curtsy and tell you that i was wrong. But I doubt that you will do that, and I bet you think of law enforcement as the show "Cops" and that every situation lets us get that time to concider. I wish it was like that. But its not. The REAL WORLD, the streets, even in a small community that I serve as a lowly firefighter/EMT, are unpredictable and dangerous. Visit my world, or atleast one area of it before you point to paranoia and the like. Get shot at once, have a gun leveled at your face, or have a person attempt to physically assault you when you are just doing your job. Thats not every day, man, but its real.



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13 Dec 2005, 10:31 am

Yes, GET OVER IT!

I've got a real world thing for you. This race is killing itself getting revenge and it's getting a lot worse at taking care of itself. Don't say that I didn't warn you.

We actively prevent any healing paths from being taken by individuals or by the country. We dream up excuses to kill people and keep pushing the envelope, because we "can't take a chance." We're not smart enough to take the high road when someone does something to us to make us paranoid and vicious. We're not smart enough to know when we've gone down the road of paranoia into real mental illness, and we get violently offended when someone tries to tell us.

If I had had your attitude, I would have killed a large percentage of my classmates because they were threatening to kill me.



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13 Dec 2005, 10:44 am

The road to recovery includes getting over it. Call me whatever you like, I got over it the first week. The only way to healing is to become stronger and live our lives. All of this paranoia weakens us, as does the lashing out against Iraq and Afghanistan, the huge toll in civilian deaths of Iraqis and Afghans, and all the scamming like an omnibus security agency that turns out to be a hollow shell of nothing and a money pit.

So, yes, I am dead serious about getting over it.



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13 Dec 2005, 1:42 pm

Remnant wrote:
If I had had your attitude, I would have killed a large percentage of my classmates because they were threatening to kill me.

Threats in school, though real, do not compare to the accual threat of violence that exists on the streets. I know that bullies are often physically violent, and some even bring weapons to school, but that isnt the same thing. I have had such threats made to me in school, and even assulted, but I didnt have a "reason" to kill anyone. Had, in the corse of being beaten up, I acted in self defence and someone was injured or killed, then that would have been tragic, although justified in that it would have been in an effort of self preservation when ones life is in imeadieate danger. that said.....

The mililtary action aside. There isnt room for the "wait and see" when it comes to law enforcment response with a real or precieved threat. We are talking about the lives of innocent by standers as well as that of a person that may be a violent offender. Are you willing to take the chance that that "nut" screaming he has an explosive device is just kidding? Or are would you take the shot and end the threat before it can become a promise? They dont get too many shots like that in Israel and look at all the suside bombers that have sucessfully carried out their missions there....

on to the military actions.... We have hashed it over many times across many threads. We as mere civilians have only the media to proove or disprove our arguments. Both sides are well represented, and both sides have their share of truths and lies. Who's to name anyof us to judge whos right and whos not? The bottom line is that our boys (and girls) are over there, the least we owe them is our support. If not of the cause then of their sacrifices to further freedom from oppression. Yet somehow I wonder if perhaps this arguement is again in vain.....
none the less, you can not expect a population of people that are brought up to hate the free world to all welcome us with open arms. Yet they were oppressed enough to welcome us in the begining when we freed them of Saddams regeime. The media sells papers, and controversy sells. I have talked to many a classmate that has gone over and is now home (some injured some not) they all said the same things "the majority of the people there are thankful for the freedom we have given them" and "they'd goback if they had to and do it all over again". I'm afraid I trust the boys I grew up with more than I do the media (who's sole purpose is to profit off of this story or that).

Its not that we arent smart enough to take the high road, its that we are wise enough to put up our gaurd so that 9-11 never happens again!



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13 Dec 2005, 4:03 pm

I didn't respond to anything else you said so far because I more or less completely agreed with it, but...

Ladysmokeater wrote:
Its not that we arent smart enough to take the high road, its that we are wise enough to put up our gaurd so that 9-11 never happens again!


I think a balance is needed here. IMHO some of the laws which were inacted went too far. It is one thing to let one person die to prevent the deaths of many. It is another to give up our freedoms for it. If we lose that, what do we have that's even worth fighting for?

I don't know how you feel about this, but I just felt like I should point this out.

offtopic

P.S. Do you believe it is ok to kill one person if it stops him from acciently setting off an explosion that will kill 5 other people (but not him)? And if you do, do you think it is ok to kill him and use his organs to save the lives of 5 other people (who need them to live)? If your answers to these two questions are different, please try to explain why.



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13 Dec 2005, 5:09 pm

Larval wrote:
I didn't respond to anything else you said so far because I more or less completely agreed with it, but...

Ladysmokeater wrote:
Its not that we arent smart enough to take the high road, its that we are wise enough to put up our gaurd so that 9-11 never happens again!

I think a balance is needed here. IMHO some of the laws which were inacted went too far. It is one thing to let one person die to prevent the deaths of many. It is another to give up our freedoms for it. If we lose that, what do we have that's even worth fighting for?
I don't know how you feel about this, but I just felt like I should point this out.
offtopic

P.S. Do you believe it is ok to kill one person if it stops him from acciently setting off an explosion that will kill 5 other people (but not him)? And if you do, do you think it is ok to kill him and use his organs to save the lives of 5 other people (who need them to live)? If your answers to these two questions are different, please try to explain why.


What laws? Which ones went Too far? The patriot act? That hasnt changed the laws and regs governing the police when it comes to shooting a suspect. It made it easier for the law to gain access to some records of those suspected of terrorism, it made it posible to search before you notify the owner or occupant of some proptery if evidence will be distroyed in the process, but notification has to be made after the search in a reasonible amount of time. It made it harder to launder money though US banks, and it made it easier to prosicute people when money is laundered....
The media attention is the real issue. People getting shot for making threats to police happens every day. As far as our freedoms go, we had to sacrifice a good bit the day those planes carreened into those buildings..... So what if the FBI knows what Ive got in the bank.... they could have looked at that before 9-11 too. Im not breaking the law, or runing around with terroritsts, so I have nothing to hide. Other laws that come after this may be something I dissagree with. But thats later. I do not think that the patriot act violates my constitutional rights. Now, if they were snaching up my weapons or suspending my right to vote, we might have a problem. The government can already track all the stuff we dont want tracked before 9-11. heck as a private citizen I can get all kinds of info on a person online.

As far as the post script. here is how I fee about that: shooting ans killing a person in the commission of a viloent crime is justified. They were disregarding the laws of the land and with intent, attempting to take the lives of others or cause serious bodily harm. I would not hesitate to cap some one that was trying to kill or maim my crew on a fire scene if it came to that (and if I had a gun....).
Killing a person just to harvest organs is wrong.
But if you shot the suspect and he died, well no problem sending his healthy parts off to serve the public good, that is if he was healthy, and if he was not opposed to the donation religiosly.
Sounds like an oxymoron, I know, but the organs of a sinner are as good as those of a saint. But the intent behind the death and subsquent harvest of organs is the issue there I think.



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13 Dec 2005, 7:06 pm

I'm willing to take chances, just to get rid of the "take the shot" mentality. Peace officers are supposed to risk their own lives for the citizens. The citizens must be willing to risk their own lives for the sake of maintaining our freedoms and for the sake of not having our peace officers act like a bunch of really nasty, overbearing hair-trigger killers. We need to get over 9/11, too. Those who do not want to get on with their lives and act like real Americans, and who do not want the rest of us to enjoy our lives and act like real Americans need to move to Iraq and stay there. You want to fight those idiots, go there to live.

A lot of us aren't smart enough to see that this all spirals downhill. We've given literally millions of lives overseas, allegedly for the sake of freedom, but we can't risk the death of a few dozen once in a while, when that risk gains us our freedoms? From one side of their mouths they tell us that the price of freedom is without measure, so we give up the lives of a million good young men, hand-sorted for goodness, as a sacrifice on that altar, and from the other side of their mouths they tell us that we all have to give up a substantial amount of our freedoms if it can save the life of even one person. Maybe we can't have it both ways, but our authorities think they can.

Since we are going to, every once in a while, sacrifice at the very least thousands of people for the cause of freedom, let every single citizen be eligible to be sacrificed. This means don't violate our Constitutional rights or our other human rights when we think it will save a life. Take the chance instead of taking the shot because we would miss what we lose when we take the shot. It's too easy to treat our rights as if we won't miss them when they're gone. I'm someone who is a little more sensitive to the loss of rights because I've seen peace officers play games with people and realize that they already have too much power to invade lives and hurt and kill people. Millions of lives have been damaged already by seeking to gain a little more security by taking away the freedoms of others and giving away our freedoms. We don't deserve our freedoms and the security, and we didn't get them either. We don't feel more secure. We feel more afraid. Why do we feel more afraid? We didn't summon up the courage to deal with reality. Instead we chose to attempt to wipe it out by force. This makes us mentally the same as the terrorist. We just move in larger groups and cause a lot more damage, using the terrorists and other people we don't like as excuses. We even cause more damage to ourselves than do the terrorists. Maybe that's why we haven't had a real terrorist incident in over four years. We've made them redundant.

Let me reiterate one point here: If we citizens of the US want to go on saying that our soldiers are fighting for the freedoms that we supposedly live by and worship, then every one of us should be prepared to give up our own lives for those freedoms instead of saying that we just can't take the chance and that we should give up those freedoms. A lot of us have literally spilled the blood of our own sons (and some daughters) to gain those freedoms, but when it comes to risking our own, we are sadly deficient. Our soldiers should turn right around and tell us that if we want them to fight and die for our freedoms, we should take every risk that they do. If it means an airport gets blown up because we maintained our Constitutional freedoms, so be it. The rest of the world risks us doing things like that to them over and over again. It's only fair that we should take the same risks ourselves that we force on our soldiers and on the rest of the world.

That's the story I'm going to stick to. Every citizen who has reaped the rewards of the freedom that was won by the blood of our soldiers has the obligation to risk his or her own blood for those same freedoms, and the blood of their children. This is what we've been doing anyway. We'll be saner if we just acknowledge it and live it.



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13 Dec 2005, 10:31 pm

Ladysmokeater wrote:
What laws? Which ones went Too far? The patriot act? That hasnt changed the laws and regs governing the police when it comes to shooting a suspect. It made it easier for the law to gain access to some records of those suspected of terrorism, it made it posible to search before you notify the owner or occupant of some proptery if evidence will be distroyed in the process, but notification has to be made after the search in a reasonible amount of time. It made it harder to launder money though US banks, and it made it easier to prosicute people when money is laundered....


I admit I am no lawyer or cop or public servant. So I can not say with a strong level of certainty which laws are absolutely necessary and which may have been overkill.

But the extent of all the changes were huge.

Quote:
The media attention is the real issue. People getting shot for making threats to police happens every day. As far as our freedoms go, we had to sacrifice a good bit the day those planes carreened into those buildings.....


I don't see why that had to be the case. Certainly 9/11 was regretable, and certain changes (such as getting the various agencies to communicate and work together) were for the better. But some of the laws didn't seem to serve a purpose to me (why the heck would the FBI want/need to see what books you borrow at the library for example), and I'm automatically skeptical of unnecessary laws.

Quote:
So what if the FBI knows what Ive got in the bank.... they could have looked at that before 9-11 too. Im not breaking the law, or runing around with terroritsts, so I have nothing to hide. Other laws that come after this may be something I dissagree with. But thats later.


Because I don't trust government. Not completely, and certainly not in the "they know what they are doing, they will take care of everything" sense. Democracy more or less requires a cynical citizenry in order to keep the government in line.

The more they know, the more effectively an abusive or corrupt government could resist the public will. I won't comment on whether or not the current administration is such a thing - if the laws stay in place, eventually a corrupt one will rise.

Quote:
I do not think that the patriot act violates my constitutional rights. Now, if they were snaching up my weapons or suspending my right to vote, we might have a problem. The government can already track all the stuff we dont want tracked before 9-11. heck as a private citizen I can get all kinds of info on a person online.


There is an important difference here - the information that a private citizen can get can be used by anyone. A corrupt/abusive/or ineffective government can not take advantage of this to stay in power any more than Joe Smoe could.

Sometimes, the government, the law efforcement agencies, and the military do need to keep secrets. I don't and won't always agree with them on their reasons for individual cases, but overall I do recognize why the ability to keep secrets is necessary for them. But this is a delicate balancing game - let them keep too much, and they can become totaltarian; too little and it is very easy for criminals and the like to evade them, or competitors to outdo them.

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Quote:
P.S. Do you believe it is ok to kill one person if it stops him from acciently setting off an explosion that will kill 5 other people (but not him)? And if you do, do you think it is ok to kill him and use his organs to save the lives of 5 other people (who need them to live)? If your answers to these two questions are different, please try to explain why.

As far as the post script. here is how I fee about that: shooting ans killing a person in the commission of a viloent crime is justified. They were disregarding the laws of the land and with intent, attempting to take the lives of others or cause serious bodily harm. I would not hesitate to cap some one that was trying to kill or maim my crew on a fire scene if it came to that (and if I had a gun....).


You misread. I said "by accident" - the person in question has no intent to kill or main, it is not a commission of a violent crime but a faultless accident.

Quote:
Killing a person just to harvest organs is wrong.
But if you shot the suspect and he died, well no problem sending his healthy parts off to serve the public good, that is if he was healthy, and if he was not opposed to the donation religiosly.
Sounds like an oxymoron, I know, but the organs of a sinner are as good as those of a saint. But the intent behind the death and subsquent harvest of organs is the issue there I think.


Agreed, that is a major (and very important) decision factor when comparing the use of organs by someone who has died (especially in an ethical sense).



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14 Dec 2005, 8:44 am

The only answers we have been offered since 9/11 are negatives. Attack someone, be ready to shoot someone, figure out who to remove from circulation, torture people for information, get rid of freedoms, these are all negatives. We must ourselves heal by using positive like learning how to get along with the world and ourselves better.



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14 Dec 2005, 9:03 am

The latest news is that they are going to be parking those "air marshalls" on trains and subways around the U.S. Now, considering that it's more than four years and we've been able to do without them so far, what plans could the government possibly have for them?

Don't go thinking that we don't have to worry that these people are going to be the American Gestapo. The Gestapo and the Luftwaff were put in place allegedly do secure the safety of German citizens.