Afghan leader accused of bid to 'legalise rape'

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oli234
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05 Apr 2009, 6:23 pm

Apparantly this law is no longer going through, because British troops can't die for a land that doesn't respect women. Squadies all being feminists and all.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ap ... -law-scrap



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06 Apr 2009, 4:36 am

anna-banana wrote:
and these people (muslim fundies) have the nerve to call *us* immoral...


I find this offensive for its obtuseness. Marital rape was completely legal in some places in the US and throughout the UK less than 20 years ago, and is still far less punishable than non-marital rape in most places. . . . so yes, "these people" have the nerve to call *us* immoral, and I daresay any among us who are well informed will deign to join them.



Also, it's worth noting that with couch and teepee type traditions, there are two factors to be considered--the social tradition that exists, and where the law stands in the enforcement of that tradition. By tradition, the freedom to make your husband sleep on the couch has been around at least since the 70s--but without legal enforcement, it means a lot less.


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06 Apr 2009, 11:34 am

This is an outrage. Those people over there got their gender discrimination backwards.

From the Guardian article:

Quote:
Custody of children, for example, is automatically granted to fathers and grandfathers,


We gotta force them to fix that, force them to practice gender discrimination in the correct direction.


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06 Apr 2009, 1:10 pm

Jainaday wrote:
anna-banana wrote:
and these people (muslim fundies) have the nerve to call *us* immoral...


I find this offensive for its obtuseness. Marital rape was completely legal in some places in the US and throughout the UK less than 20 years ago, and is still far less punishable than non-marital rape in most places. . . . so yes, "these people" have the nerve to call *us* immoral, and I daresay any among us who are well informed will deign to join them.



Also, it's worth noting that with couch and teepee type traditions, there are two factors to be considered--the social tradition that exists, and where the law stands in the enforcement of that tradition. By tradition, the freedom to make your husband sleep on the couch has been around at least since the 70s--but without legal enforcement, it means a lot less.


Yeah well what if she said Christian fundies...would your attitude be different then?

TBH....and this is probably going to piss a lot of people off because I'm coming off "discriminatory" but the Islam faith seems much harsher in crimes and punishments with women than they are among the christian faith.

BTW, if you assume I'm advocating christianity as the solution...you're wrong. I believe in neither.


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06 Apr 2009, 4:21 pm

MissConstrue wrote:
Yeah well what if she said Christian fundies...would your attitude be different then?


Yes--because to complain about Islam on an anglocentric site has a stronger edge of xenophobia than to complain about Christianity. I would still have defended it though; other things being equal, hypocrisy should be called out regardless of its origin.

It may very well be the case that Christianity treats women better than Islam, but as a nation we still don't have a lot of room to go around being shocked and horrified about their "stone-age" views on this matter. It's as if we're incapable of recalling our own behavior for the past half century, and it makes me sick.


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06 Apr 2009, 4:37 pm

Jainaday wrote:
anna-banana wrote:
and these people (muslim fundies) have the nerve to call *us* immoral...


I find this offensive for its obtuseness. Marital rape was completely legal in some places in the US and throughout the UK less than 20 years ago, and is still far less punishable than non-marital rape in most places. . . . so yes, "these people" have the nerve to call *us* immoral, and I daresay any among us who are well informed will deign to join them.



Also, it's worth noting that with couch and teepee type traditions, there are two factors to be considered--the social tradition that exists, and where the law stands in the enforcement of that tradition. By tradition, the freedom to make your husband sleep on the couch has been around at least since the 70s--but without legal enforcement, it means a lot less.


anna is not American.....

and what part of '(muslim fundies)' you didn't see?



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06 Apr 2009, 4:41 pm

I think you are making a big tado about nothing Jainaday, plus you have contradicted yourself by admitting you believe in 'positive' discrimination. She said Islamic fundamentalist, that is an accurate term to describe this, and what was used in various news reports too. They are fundamentalist and they are Islamist.

You are making the assumption that she thinks that all Muslims are like that, which is not what she said.

Hamid Karzai is not a fundamentalist but he is appeasing them, you could feel that he has no choice to but it is Islamist that are behind such laws.



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06 Apr 2009, 4:42 pm

Let's be fair about this. There's some pretty bad stuff being done in the name of Judaism too. A place called Gaza comes to mind.

I've heard it claimed that there's never been a war fought in the name of Buddhism. Even if that's true, there's been a lot of wars started by people raised as Buddhists in Buddhist countries.

And during the twentieth century in the Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia, millions of innocent people were murdered in efforts to create atheist utopias.

There's a real shortage of innocent belief systems.


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06 Apr 2009, 4:51 pm

CanyonWind wrote:
And during the twentieth century in the Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia, millions of innocent people were murdered in efforts to create atheist utopias.


It's a myth that the massacres done by the communists were made in the name of atheism, they were made in the name of Communism, an ideology and a system which has a lot of common with Religion (Communists worshiped their leaders instead of gods). In other hand , atheism is not a set of beliefs and ideologies like Communism.



oli234
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06 Apr 2009, 5:01 pm

Quote:
It's a myth that the massacres done by the communists were made in the name of atheism, they were made in the name of Communism, an ideology and a system which has a lot of common with Religion (Communists worshiped their leaders instead of gods). In other hand , atheism is not a set of beliefs and ideologies like Communism.


Basically agree with what you're saying but need to add that is was done in the name of a gross missinterprataion of what communism was meant to be, the worship of leaders has nothing to do with the original idea.



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06 Apr 2009, 5:16 pm

Oh wars have been fought in the name of Buddhism. Before the famous "Dokyo Affair", who do you think was holding political power in the Japanese Empire alongside the royal family? Buddhist priests.



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06 Apr 2009, 5:28 pm

Sri Lanka has militant Buddhists.

However this argument has been done over and over. C'mon we are intelligent people.



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07 Apr 2009, 1:43 am

LePetitPrince wrote:

anna is not American.....

and what part of '(muslim fundies)' you didn't see?


She defended the morality of "us." Since this is an American based, English Language site, it seems fair to assume the historical references I made to the immorality of the UK and the US would be applicable.


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07 Apr 2009, 2:15 am

So are we not allowed to respond to the topic because we're "hypocrites" or politically incorrect?

I believe many of us are only responding to this issue regarding Afghanistan and Islam, which is what this topic was originally about. I see nothing wrong with that and we can also add how barbaric other beliefs and religions have been through the centuries but that would take forever and it would go off topic. I really don't see why it is fair to assume that even though some of us are against these practices we we're automatically hypocrites or being discriminatory. I believe Anna lucidated herself well in saying fundemental muslims not muslims or all muslims and I think she is entitled to her opinion.

Anyway, I believe we all have the right to give our own opinion. I really don't think she was coming off as a discriminator against muslims in general or being a hypocrite since we don't all know eachother. If you assume we all think alike than that would be just as well as the pot calling the kettle black.


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07 Apr 2009, 3:48 am

MissConstrue wrote:
So are we not allowed to respond to the topic because we're "hypocrites" or politically incorrect?

I believe many of us are only responding to this issue regarding Afghanistan and Islam, which is what this topic was originally about. I see nothing wrong with that and we can also add how barbaric other beliefs and religions have been through the centuries but that would take forever and it would go off topic. I really don't see why it is fair to assume that even though some of us are against these practices we we're automatically hypocrites or being discriminatory. I believe Anna lucidated herself well in saying fundemental muslims not muslims or all muslims and I think she is entitled to her opinion.

Anyway, I believe we all have the right to give our own opinion. I really don't think she was coming off as a discriminator against muslims in general or being a hypocrite since we don't all know eachother. If you assume we all think alike than that would be just as well as the pot calling the kettle black.


HOLY CRAP.

I know I haven't posted for awhile, but I don't remember people on this site having such a profound unablity to Read.


For the record, I responded to This Statement:

Quote:
these people (muslim fundies) have the nerve to call *us* immoral...



I defended the right of "these people" to call *us* immoral, which history--for those who care to bother with such things--Obviously vindicates.

I did not assume everyone was the same; I did not assume that the poster intended to refer to others besides Muslim fundamentalists; I did not assume that to be against the practice of marital rape makes one a hypocrite. They are immoral; we (as a nation) are, in fact also immoral. Therefore, yes, they have the right to call us so.


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07 Apr 2009, 5:08 am

Jainaday wrote:
LePetitPrince wrote:

anna is not American.....

and what part of '(muslim fundies)' you didn't see?


She defended the morality of "us." Since this is an American based, English Language site, it seems fair to assume the historical references I made to the immorality of the UK and the US would be applicable.


....and she's not british either :lol:

I believe she meant by "us" the atheist/agnostic/non-religious populations and she's not referring to particular country , and yes Muslim fundies do call these people 'immoral'.

And even if she meant it by European people she still right, Muslim fundies do claim that they are the most moralist people ever and Christian Europeans are 'unclean' and immoral people while in fact the Europeans hold human rights much higher than any of those Muslim fundies.