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badRobot
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13 May 2021, 2:51 pm

Every time some depressed person posts something online there is a lot of pressure for others to be reassuring and supportive.

But instead of helping people to avoid horrible mistakes, others more often encourage depressed person to act on their false beliefs and negative emotions, reinforce their false beliefs, making recovery harder and harder.

E.g. clearly depressed woman having episode complains about her "abusive" husband, who she believes leaves toilet seat up on purpose because he doesn't respect her and doesn't care for her. And says she's considering leaving him.

It's totally OK to reply in "supportive" or "empowering" manner like "Hugs. I feel you. Dump his disrespectful ass! You go girl!! ! I believe in you!", encouraging her to destroy her very likely normally happy relationship and possibly her future. It counts as "emotional support".

But it's NOT OK to say "Please don't even think of leaving him right now, depression clouds your judgement, your negative emotions are very likely to be unfounded or grossly exaggerated, please deal with your depression first". If you are not "supportive" about their wrong intentions and beliefs all over sudden it counts as "belittling" or "unsolicited advise".

It's really frustrating to see "unsupportive" opinions repeatedly being shunned and ignored by "supportive" mob, instead of being backed and repeated, making it easier for that depressed person to ignore. It is especially obvious on social media with "upvotes" or "likes".

This false "support" instead of true support can only perpetuate depression. I can't help but feel kinda hopeless about it.



Fnord
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13 May 2021, 6:25 pm

badRobot wrote:
Every time some depressed person posts something online there is a lot of pressure for others to be reassuring and supportive.

But instead of helping people to avoid horrible mistakes, others more often encourage depressed person to act on their false beliefs and negative emotions, reinforce their false beliefs, making recovery harder and harder.
...

This false "support" instead of true support can only perpetuate depression. I can't help but feel kinda hopeless about it.
You have obviated a truly hopeless situation.

It is more acceptable to "softly" render empty praise praise and encouragement to such individuals than it is to "bluntly" explain what is happening and instruct them on how to best to solve their problems.

It is as if affirming feelings is more important than solving problems.

Approved method: "I think you are a really great person, Timmy, and it is understandable why you would be discouraged after falling down that well.  Just remember that the world is a wonderful place and that you will eventually find your own way out of that hole; but in the mean time, be of good cheer and look on the bright side, because every cloud has a silver lining, and when it rains you it rains pennies from Heaven and blah blah bladdity blah..."

Unapproved method: "If you look to your right, Timmy, you will see a ladder propped against the wall.  All you have to do is get up, walk over, and start climbing that ladder.  Pretty soon, you will be close enough to the top to reach up and pull yourself out of the hole.  Just forget about how cold and dark it is down there and how you ended up down there in the first place..."

Yes, the situation seems hopeless; but what can be done when any sensible solution is met with complaints about being insensitive and warnings to never again be so blunt "or else"?


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badRobot
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14 May 2021, 1:13 am

Fnord wrote:
You have obviated a truly hopeless situation.

It is more acceptable to "softly" render empty praise praise and encouragement to such individuals than it is to "bluntly" explain what is happening and instruct them on how to best to solve their problems.

It is as if affirming feelings is more important than solving problems.

Approved method: "I think you are a really great person, Timmy, and it is understandable why you would be discouraged after falling down that well.  Just remember that the world is a wonderful place and that you will eventually find your own way out of that hole; but in the mean time, be of good cheer and look on the bright side, because every cloud has a silver lining, and when it rains you it rains pennies from Heaven and blah blah bladdity blah..."

Unapproved method: "If you look to your right, Timmy, you will see a ladder propped against the wall.  All you have to do is get up, walk over, and start climbing that ladder.  Pretty soon, you will be close enough to the top to reach up and pull yourself out of the hole.  Just forget about how cold and dark it is down there and how you ended up down there in the first place..."

Yes, the situation seems hopeless; but what can be done when any sensible solution is met with complaints about being insensitive and warnings to never again be so blunt "or else"?


Exactly, the whole healthcare system and society focus 99% of effort on cushioning the hole and 1% on how to get out or avoid it.



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14 May 2021, 1:29 am

Suggesting burpees as a magic cure for chronic depression is f*****g insensitive and ignorant. Yes, they might contribute to an overall approach to the problem but they're not going to magically fix it, especially when the person clearly has causes bigger than just pent-up energy.


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badRobot
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14 May 2021, 1:44 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Suggesting burpees as a magic cure for chronic depression is f*****g insensitive and ignorant. Yes, they might contribute to an overall approach to the problem but they're not going to magically fix it, especially when the person clearly has causes bigger than just pent-up energy.


Burpees is not a magic cure.

It's a way to improve tryptophan metabolism, down regulate stress and stimulate reward system. It DIRECTLY addresses 90% of physiological causes of depression.

Doing burpees on daily basis and seeing visible positive effect improves learning capabilities, boosts motivation, encourages responsibility and putting effort into your own wellbeing. It DIRECTLY addresses 90% of psychological causes of depression.

Burpees is the first step of the ladder out of the hole.

People like yourself are ignorant, but such opinions receive more support for being "sensitive" and it makes it even more hopeless.



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14 May 2021, 1:46 am

badRobot wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Suggesting burpees as a magic cure for chronic depression is f*****g insensitive and ignorant. Yes, they might contribute to an overall approach to the problem but they're not going to magically fix it, especially when the person clearly has causes bigger than just pent-up energy.


Burpees is not a magic cure.

It's a way to improve tryptophan metabolism, down regulate stress and stimulate reward system. It DIRECTLY addresses 90% of physiological causes of depression.

Doing burpees on daily basis and seeing visible positive effect improves learning capabilities, boosts motivation, encourages responsibility and putting effort into your own wellbeing. It DIRECTLY addresses 90% of psychological causes of depression.

Burpees is the first step of the ladder out of the hole.

People like yourself are ignorant, but such opinions receive more support for being "sensitive" and it makes it even more hopeless.


I'm not suggesting they can't contribute, it's just that sometimes people are so far down they don't believe the ladder as you call it even exists. They need to realize the ladder exists before they can use it and shaming them for failing to see it or failing to trust it doesn't help them.

You're useless unless you accept this solution.
"Oh well, guess I'm useless." :cry:


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badRobot
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14 May 2021, 1:49 am

funeralxempire wrote:
I'm not suggesting they can't contribute, it's just that sometimes people are so far down they don't believe the ladder as you call it even exists. They need to realize the ladder exists before they can use it and shaming them for failing to see it doesn't help.


How the hell they are supposed to realize the ladder exists if you are immediately labeled "insensitive and ignorant" by "supportive" mob for pointing at it to them?



badRobot
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14 May 2021, 1:58 am

This dismissive tone "they might contribute" is just plain wrong. Not "might contribute", but essential to get well.

Why the hell advise to take SSRIs addressing physiological causes of depression is not "insensitive and ignorant". But suggesting doing stuff without which SSRIs can't work is "insensitive and ignorant"?



funeralxempire
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14 May 2021, 2:01 am

badRobot wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I'm not suggesting they can't contribute, it's just that sometimes people are so far down they don't believe the ladder as you call it even exists. They need to realize the ladder exists before they can use it and shaming them for failing to see it doesn't help.


How the hell they are supposed to realize the ladder exists if you are immediately labeled "insensitive and ignorant" by "supportive" mob for pointing at it to them?


Because sometimes the person is asking for emotional support and not a solution. If you've been chronically depressed for a substantial period you'd likely heard ever solution imaginable.


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badRobot
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14 May 2021, 2:12 am

funeralxempire wrote:
You're useless unless you accept this solution.
"Oh well, guess I'm useless." :cry:


- Oh, I feel so bad, there is no way out of this hole!
- No, there is a way! Let me show you, put you right foot on this piece of wood and your hand on this rail...
- Hey you!! !! Suggesting putting his right foot on the fist step on the ladder is f*****g insensitive and ignorant!! !! GET OUT OF HERE!! ! Hey, depressed guy, there is nothing wrong with being in the hole, don't feel bad about it! Don't listen to insensitive and ignorant people! Hugs!
- Oh thank you! :cry:



badRobot
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14 May 2021, 2:20 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Because sometimes the person is asking for emotional support and not a solution. If you've been chronically depressed for a substantial period you'd likely heard ever solution imaginable.


Yeah, and you've seen this solution labeled as "insensitive and ignorant" by majority of your "supporters". Emotional support isn't unconditionally good. Affirmation of negative beliefs a lot of you slide in as "emotional support" is harmful.



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14 May 2021, 2:46 am

OP, are you upset because you wished someone had more "tough love" with you when you were depressed? Or are you upset because someone criticized you for being too harsh with someone who was depressed?

The "abusive" husband example seems odd to me. Doesn't sound like that person is depressed, but looking for validation for ending a marriage, however trivial the excuse. NTs seem notorious for this kind of stuff: hinting and alluding without outright speaking their minds and looking for validation from other NTs. In that scenario, the Theory of Mind disconnect between an Aspie and an NT may indicate why the Aspie's criticisms and objections were met unfavorably. NTs play games. It's not always literally about what they're saying.



badRobot
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14 May 2021, 3:06 am

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
OP, are you upset because you wished someone had more "tough love" with you when you were depressed? Or are you upset because someone criticized you for being too harsh with someone who was depressed?


I'm upset because people don't realize this kind of being "supportive" is almost as bad as gaslighting. This is not about me, this is a common thing I see over and over again.

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
The "abusive" husband example seems odd to me. Doesn't sound like that person is depressed, but looking for validation for ending a marriage, however trivial the excuse. NTs seem notorious for this kind of stuff: hinting and alluding without outright speaking their minds and looking for validation from other NTs. In that scenario, the Theory of Mind disconnect between an Aspie and an NT may indicate why the Aspie's criticisms and objections were met unfavorably. NTs play games. It's not always literally about what they're saying.


She mentioned she takes meds and goes to therapy for depression. She later thanked me in PMs for talking her out.



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14 May 2021, 3:23 am

badRobot wrote:
She mentioned she takes meds and goes to therapy for depression. She later thanked me in PMs for talking her out.


Then, in this case, saying "Please don't even think of leaving him right now, depression clouds your judgement, your negative emotions are very likely to be unfounded or grossly exaggerated, please deal with your depression first," actually worked. Congratulations.

In a general sense, I think there's a lot of fluff and stock phrases that people a programmed to say. Like when a family member is hospitalized, "Oh. I'm so sorry." Or, when someone dies, "If there's anything I can do..." With depression, the same holds true. What they're really saying is: "I don't really care or want to help, but want to acknowledge that you've signaled a tragedy."

Your arguing that these stock phrases are detrimental to depressed person? Or rather, your upset that saying anything other than a stock phrase is considered a social faux pas?



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14 May 2021, 3:52 am

 ! magz wrote:
Moved the topic from The Haven to Health, Fitness and Sports as the tone of the OP clearly invites discussion about overcoming depression, without indicating any need for personal support.

OP - have you ever personally suffered from clinical depression or any other mental illness?


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badRobot
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14 May 2021, 4:05 am

magz wrote:
Moved the topic from The Haven to Health, Fitness and Sports as the tone of the OP clearly invites discussion about overcoming depression, without indicating any need for personal support.
OP - have you ever personally suffered clinical depression?


Yeah, I'm talking from first hand experience.

This is not discussion about overcoming depression. I'm talking about my desperation, how it's pretty much impossible for depressed person to stumble upon solutions because society doesn't approve giving solutions and depressed person doesn't seek for them. For example, I would never start looking for solution in "Health and fitness" section when I was depressed, I would spend all my time in "The Haven".

It feels like the only hope of recovering is a lucky coincidence, not result of effort from society and that person.

This situation really is hopeless.