Subtle and Blatant Misogyny

Post Reply New Topic

I'm posting this in the haven because my only intention is to talk about the subject of misogyny happening on the board with anyone else who has seen/sees it,(and probably OTHER STUFF TOO) which I almost feel like is IMPOSSIBLE on WP without at least a dozen people getting all "WHAT ABOUT MEN? WE HAVE IT JUST AS BAD IF NOT WORSE WHYYYYY" and if that's what this thread turns into I'm just going to ask a mod to close the thread, so please don't do that in this thread. Please. Don't be a jerk.

I constantly see sexist/misogynistic comments on the board which I am not going to point out(I'm on amicable terms with literally every person I see doing this, that or I've never interacted with them in a way that wasn't neutral from both sides) because I have no desire to prove anything, I assume most posters have either seen at least one or two comments that are misogynistic and for whatever reason they don't say anything about it. Maybe they don't think it's sexist, maybe they don't care, maybe they'd rather not have a ten page debate which just leads to a thread being closed etc.

But I see at least a few posters here who seem to really loathe women, and while none of them have EVER said anything nasty or hostile to me, it makes me feel like I have to be careful not to confront what they're saying. That's pretty much the opposite of how I want my life to be and it used to be a non-issue, but now I've got this urge to confront certain ideas or language whenever I see it, and I think that would be problematic. There are several girls I've connected with on the WP FB groups who left for similar reasons or just never got involved, because they too saw a lot of the things I've seen here.

I'm not leaving or anything but I feel like I was relying on this place as a source of support and now I'm pulling away and don't really know how to give support or find it here.

I mean I've seen so much anti-Islam crap I feel like I'm going to throw up, because it's not even dissecting the religion(IT IS UTTER BS, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE PEOPLE PICK IT APART) but the culture surrounding it. To be completely frank, I don't think that's any different than saying things about Jewish culture. And I have both Muslims and Jews in my background, people who raised me and taught me about the world, and I cringe when I read some of the things people say about Muslim women here. It's not that I'm offended, I'm not, none of this OFFENDS me, it makes me feel unwelcome. Not like anyone wants me to leave, but like if I started saying what I want to say, I would just become a target of some of the hostility. So it feels like I either don't speak up when I feel like I should, or do speak up, and end up being run off of the board like some other people have experienced as a result of being vocal about these topics.

I'm dead tired and just want to conclude with this:

I'm just VENTING, please don't say something along the lines of.... hmm.

You: Well, I don't see this happening here, could you provide examples?
Me: No, don't want to name names blah blah blah
You: If you can't provide evidence/examples blah blah blah

I don't want to debate it, is what I'm saying, if you can relate, great, say what you will, but please don't expect me to debate misogyny or sexism or xenophobia or islamophobia(or whatever), that's why I'm posting this in the haven, I don't want to argue about this, I just needed to get it off of my chest

_________________
http://www.facebook.com/eidetic.onus
http://eidetic-onus.tumblr.com/
Warning, my tumblr is a man-free zone

Good for you. I'm not being sarcastic but proud of you for stating your opinion clearly and, as much as possible, without pointing fingers. I deal with misogynistic and sexist comments on a regular basis and they drive me nuts, but they are coming from a close friend whom I have no trouble correcting. Of course he defends himself and says I am overreacting quite often, but just getting it out in the open usually helps.

A lot of men on here are bitter and will blame women for their lonelyness/celebicy/virginity rather than see their attitude as the issue.

I've definitely noticed that WP is male-centric, which I suppose is due to the fact that more males are diagnosed with AS than females and that statistic is reflected in the WP population. The male's viewpoints outnumber the female's.

I too detect the "vibe" and I feel that outside of subforums such as women's discussion I can't really express myself or seek the support I truly need for anything that might happen to me. Seeing how you have been treated over the last few months has just reinforced my feelings on this. I've already made the conscious decision that if I ever have to face the same thing that you have, WP will be the last to know, because I know any support I receive will be totally soiled on by the kinds of people you're talking about.

I spend about a night in L&D and just give up. I mean, what's the point of enlightening them? Let them learn their attitudes are wrong the hard way when they're a male spinster in 30 years time. Leave them be and let fate and consequence do it's harsh work. Problem solved for me.

The other night someone made a veiled comment about me PMS'ing (after I posted a response defending someone). I didn't take issue with it because it didn't dawn on me what it meant until the next day, and by then it was too late.

This. Theses attitudes along with some others on different topics are why I don't really engage in discussions on wrong planet any more. A lot of the things they say just turn me off engaging with a the place as a whole.

For a long time I have noticed a common hatred, dislike, and bias between many members of the opposite sex, due to gender. I notice a lot of it, because it's like you said blatant at times, and some of it is more noticeable from the tone or "e-tone" of these user's posts... While it all gets me down here and there, because people here can treat each other badly because of a difference of gender, it really helps me personally, to just take a step outside somewhere else for awhile, and be around other people who aren't so caught up with the opposite gender.

I've seen plenty of misogynistic statements and attitudes in all of the sub forums I visit. It seems that a lot of men view women and sex as something they are entitled to. I don't react to it - no point getting drawn in.

Um...

Is it bad I haven't noticed any of this yet?

XD.

I have seen plenty of misogyny especially in the L&D forum. I suppose I am guilty of not responding in some cases because I don't have the energy or stomach for the kind of argument that will ensue. On a few occasions, I have commented and found that no amount of carefully explained logic makes a difference to people who want to see women as an antagonist.

Perhaps misogyny may be more common in people who find it difficult to empathize with others. If a person does not have a sense of the separate humanity of another person, they are likely to ascribe all manner of imagined evils to that person, not realizing that the other person is fully as human as themselves.

I had an interesting reaction to Tori Amos' song "Me and A Gun". The first time I heard it, I got intensely defensive. I felt almost as if the song were directly accusing all men, and consequently me, of being a rapist. I recognized that my reaction was both unfair and just plain wrong and I wanted to understand why I reacted that way.

It seems to me that rape is fundamentally an act of overpowering and dominating another person... Of forcing an unwanted experience on another. Of forcibly demonstrating that the other person is only safe so long as the rapist allows it. I suspect in some ways the intent of rape is to show that the victim's life is not her own.

The obvious result can be a deep sense of powerlessness. This sense of powerlessness can affect the victim's loved ones as well. I assume most people do not like to feel powerless. I certainly do not. And I think that pushed me into a defensive reaction against the content of the song. Listening to it, I felt powerless and impotent to help another person who was suffering. And rather than accept my own powerlessness, I wanted to reject the emotions that the song brought up.

"Me And A Gun" effectively expresses something like the loneliness and sense of isolation that a person might feel in that situation. I have listened to the song a number of times and have come to recognize Amos is not accusing all men, but is instead expressing the powerlessness she felt. The best of art finds a way to communicate seemingly inexpressible experience.

It seems logical to conclude that one of the primary things that impels a person to commit rape is a sense of their own lack of power and their own impotence in life. Why else would they need to inflict this kind of show of power on another person? A strong and confident person has no need to bully another. The same applies to misogyny.

Men and women are equal. There may be differences when it comes to some specifics with each sex having their advantages and disadvantages, but when all is said and done, women are every bit as capable as men.

But there are people who lack confidence in themselves and attack others to artificially inflate their own sense of competence. There are plenty of men and women who, as individuals, are guilty of this. But this discussion is specifically about misogyny. And because men often are physically stronger and also have far greater political power than women, there is an imbalance that needs to be addressed.

Maybe an effective way of dealing with misogynists is not to attack or to defend one's own position, but instead to simply demand evidence that backs up the misogynist's claims. (Personal anecdotes are not evidence, by the way.)

At any rate, misogyny and racism are things that I find very frustrating to deal with because they, by their nature, are not based on reality. They are nothing more than unfounded attacks whose sole intent is to provide a false sense of superiority to the attacker. They cannot be argued logically because they are, by nature, ideological. They begin with with the desired conclusion and ignore any statement that does not support the prejudice.

The only ethical position to take is to accept the full humanity of any other person you are dealing with. Will my writing this convince anyone who isn't already in agreement with me? Probably not. A person who specifically tries to subjugate an outsider group is already biased and no amount of logic will penetrate a fixed belief.

There will always be a set of people who soothe their own impotence by attacking others. Arguing with them rarely results in a constructive dialog. But demanding that they provide actual, testable evidence for their position might at least get them to shut up.

I saw this linked recently and thought it an interesting contribution to the discussion.
I don't agree with it applying generally, as it doesn't consider gay men's point of view, or that of men who consciously choose to resist prejudice and misogyny.

5 ways men are trained to hate women

As an antidote you could try this
The Good Men Project

I've noticed this too and been bothered by it and also by rape apologists that I've seen posting here.

Behind the veil of anonymity, people tend to let their inner a**hole loose. It's not just a wrongplanet.net issue - it's all over the damn Internet.

I bet that a lot of the people who are saying these things would be quick to hold their tongues if they were to be held accountable for whatever rolled off them.