Believe in Yourself or you need to believe in yourself more!

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cubedemon6073
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10 Jan 2019, 12:46 am

Prometheus18 wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
Not exactly. While it's true that believing in yourself doesn't matter if no one else believes in you, it is easier for others to believe in you if you believe in yourself too. I mean let's say two people apply for the same job. Both have equally good papers for it, but neither has anyone who recommends them for the job. However, one of them is confident, saying "I can do this" and the other one is not and doesn't say it. So, the confident one actually has someone recommending them (the person themselves) while the one who doesn't believe in themselves has no one. While it might turn out that the less confident one would've been a better choice, they certainly don't look like it during the interviews and the other one gets hired.

It's an endless cycle, really. You say that how can people demand you to believe in yourself when they don't believe in you and they say how could they believe in you when even you who know yourself the best can't do it.

I think it depends on the person a little bit. Some people just need someone to have faith in them before they can have faith in themselves, while some others gather their faith in themselves from pure facts or what they think are facts. Neither is exactly the wrong way, but you don't need others in order to follow the later path so it might be easier.


Good, well balanced analysis. Thanks for posting.


I actually believe I can do jobs. I can say that I believe I can do these jobs. I can have the I can attitude or whatever other BS others (both employers and non-employers) demand me to have.

But, in the end who makes the decisions? Who defines what confidence, believing in oneself, how confidence and believing in oneself is supposed to be displayed, professionalism are? Who defines these things, sets the tone, builds the doors, puts the locks on the doors, make the keys for the locks, guards all of these things and permits and/or denies entry? We as individuals don't get to define these things. It is the employers, employment culture and society at large who define these things. And, who defines what gets enforced of these things and when?

The truth of the matter is I live in a society (USA) that is highly regimented, regulated, conformist and rubber stamped that claims individualism, be yourself, we're free, etc, etc but when one looks at the fine print freedom and individualism it is a lie. No, it's not like North Korea. The USA's tyranny doesn't even need guards, concentration camps, secret police or anything the overt tyranny's have or had. We're more covert and insidious then that.

So, let's get to a corollary based upon what I said. If one wants to succeed (as defined by the average person) in the USA then one is going to have to learn to follow the social standards, give the pat answers, display the right attitude and right non-verbal language. As for me. I'm 39. I'm on SSDI. I'm tired. I have zero desire to be something I'm not and even if I wanted to I don't think I could anyway. So, I don't give two s**ts anymore. Ultimately, it is one's own choice what one does or doesn't do. I've made mine.



Prometheus18
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10 Jan 2019, 12:57 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
Not exactly. While it's true that believing in yourself doesn't matter if no one else believes in you, it is easier for others to believe in you if you believe in yourself too. I mean let's say two people apply for the same job. Both have equally good papers for it, but neither has anyone who recommends them for the job. However, one of them is confident, saying "I can do this" and the other one is not and doesn't say it. So, the confident one actually has someone recommending them (the person themselves) while the one who doesn't believe in themselves has no one. While it might turn out that the less confident one would've been a better choice, they certainly don't look like it during the interviews and the other one gets hired.

It's an endless cycle, really. You say that how can people demand you to believe in yourself when they don't believe in you and they say how could they believe in you when even you who know yourself the best can't do it.

I think it depends on the person a little bit. Some people just need someone to have faith in them before they can have faith in themselves, while some others gather their faith in themselves from pure facts or what they think are facts. Neither is exactly the wrong way, but you don't need others in order to follow the later path so it might be easier.


Good, well balanced analysis. Thanks for posting.


I actually believe I can do jobs. I can say that I believe I can do these jobs. I can have the I can attitude or whatever other BS others (both employers and non-employers) demand me to have.

But, in the end who makes the decisions? Who defines what confidence, believing in oneself, how confidence and believing in oneself is supposed to be displayed, professionalism are? Who defines these things, sets the tone, builds the doors, puts the locks on the doors, make the keys for the locks, guards all of these things and permits and/or denies entry? We as individuals don't get to define these things. It is the employers, employment culture and society at large who define these things. And, who defines what gets enforced of these things and when?

The truth of the matter is I live in a society (USA) that is highly regimented, regulated, conformist and rubber stamped that claims individualism, be yourself, we're free, etc, etc but when one looks at the fine print freedom and individualism it is a lie. No, it's not like North Korea. The USA's tyranny doesn't even need guards, concentration camps, secret police or anything the overt tyranny's have or had. We're more covert and insidious then that.

So, let's get to a corollary based upon what I said. If one wants to succeed (as defined by the average person) in the USA then one is going to have to learn to follow the social standards, give the pat answers, display the right attitude and right non-verbal language. As for me. I'm 39. I'm on SSDI. I'm tired. I have zero desire to be something I'm not and even if I wanted to I don't think I could anyway. So, I don't give two s**ts anymore. Ultimately, it is one's own choice what one does or doesn't do. I've made mine.


I get everything you're saying about conformity and the pernicious and disingenuous social trends in the USA (I live in the UK, but the same applies). Personally, I'd rather be unemployed than put on an act for an employer to get the job. Luckily, my benefits are - just about - enough to live on. I'm also lucky that I'm a naturally confident person anyway, although this doesn't help. People often tell me I come off shy even when I'm brimming with confidence.



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11 Jan 2019, 12:01 am

Some precious lil "people" believe in themselves way too much


Unconscious incompetence


They act like every thought and emotion that goes through their head is the latest greatest scientific invention

They ask questions that are none of their business

Whey grunt "what", like it is the etiquette equivalent of "excuse me"

They act like they know everything

They say "can you" as if, just because you can, you have to


They talk too much and loud



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11 Jan 2019, 11:48 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
So, let's get to a corollary based upon what I said. If one wants to succeed (as defined by the average person) in the USA then one is going to have to learn to follow the social standards, give the pat answers, display the right attitude and right non-verbal language. As for me. I'm 39. I'm on SSDI. I'm tired. I have zero desire to be something I'm not and even if I wanted to I don't think I could anyway. So, I don't give two s**ts anymore. Ultimately, it is one's own choice what one does or doesn't do. I've made mine.


Well yeah, that's how it goes literally everywhere, the rules are just a bit different sometimes depending on the culture. I get it that it sucks for you, but it's a must because if everyone got to create their own rules society wouldn't work at all. Rules are simply needed in places that have a lot of people and it's impossible for them to please everyone.



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11 Jan 2019, 12:06 pm

Fireblossom wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
So, let's get to a corollary based upon what I said. If one wants to succeed (as defined by the average person) in the USA then one is going to have to learn to follow the social standards, give the pat answers, display the right attitude and right non-verbal language. As for me. I'm 39. I'm on SSDI. I'm tired. I have zero desire to be something I'm not and even if I wanted to I don't think I could anyway. So, I don't give two s**ts anymore. Ultimately, it is one's own choice what one does or doesn't do. I've made mine.


Well yeah, that's how it goes literally everywhere, the rules are just a bit different sometimes depending on the culture. I get it that it sucks for you, but it's a must because if everyone got to create their own rules society wouldn't work at all. Rules are simply needed in places that have a lot of people and it's impossible for them to please everyone.


True! Like I said, in the end it's one's choice what one does or not but be prepared to face the consequences for those choices.



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13 Jan 2019, 1:35 pm

Do you believe that you can fulfill the duties of being a janitor at my fictitious widget factory?

If not, why should I give you that job & expect that you will be able to do it w/o constant monitoring?

If you tell me, honestly, that you don't believe you can do it.. then WHY would I give you my money to do that job? :?

Even for a "lowly," role as a janitor, I'm not going to hire someone who thinks & says they cannot do the job I'm paying them to do. I'm going to hire the guy who says "Yeah, I can do this. I'll be here on time every morning & everything will be clean and tidy. I won't really require any instructions nor anyone to check to see that my work is completed - it'll be done. You'll hear from me when I'm running low on supplies and we need to order things in."

Does this make any sense to you, Cube? Imagine you're the boss with the bag of gold to dole out to any candidate you choose. Are you going to hire a potential janitor that says he doesn't think he can sweep floors and wash windows who you then have to spend your valuable time chasing after to ensure he does his job? Or are you going to hire the guy who's confident that he knows exactly how to sweep floors & wash windows so that your hiring decision is some of the last time you'll ever have to spend focusing on keeping your widget factory clean, and then that guy just gets it done & you pay him as agreed?


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13 Jan 2019, 1:42 pm

Kiprobalhato wrote:
how on earth is an aspie supposed to know if their "presence" is off putting or not?


By observing others' reactions to us. Body language, facial expressions, words/town of voice etc. We have to rely on others as if they are mirrors.. and their reactions to us reflect back what we're putting out. If others' reactions to us are negative, chances are pretty good that we're being "off putting," to them.

The worst is when we're completely oblivious to their reactions to us, of course. But by making a conscious effort to pay attention to others' reactions to us, it can help us realize when we're making mistakes & know that we need to adjust what we're doing.. or remove ourselves from their presence asap to avoid further mistakes.


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cubedemon6073
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14 Jan 2019, 9:55 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Do you believe that you can fulfill the duties of being a janitor at my fictitious widget factory?

If not, why should I give you that job & expect that you will be able to do it w/o constant monitoring?

If you tell me, honestly, that you don't believe you can do it.. then WHY would I give you my money to do that job? :?

Even for a "lowly," role as a janitor, I'm not going to hire someone who thinks & says they cannot do the job I'm paying them to do. I'm going to hire the guy who says "Yeah, I can do this. I'll be here on time every morning & everything will be clean and tidy. I won't really require any instructions nor anyone to check to see that my work is completed - it'll be done. You'll hear from me when I'm running low on supplies and we need to order things in."

Does this make any sense to you, Cube? Imagine you're the boss with the bag of gold to dole out to any candidate you choose. Are you going to hire a potential janitor that says he doesn't think he can sweep floors and wash windows who you then have to spend your valuable time chasing after to ensure he does his job? Or are you going to hire the guy who's confident that he knows exactly how to sweep floors & wash windows so that your hiring decision is some of the last time you'll ever have to spend focusing on keeping your widget factory clean, and then that guy just gets it done & you pay him as agreed?


1. GF long time no see.

2. By the very fact, I chose to apply I must have some measure of belief that I can do the job. If I didn't believe I could do it at all, why would I waste my time and the employer's time to bother to apply at all?

3. One can believe in oneself or have the confidence but if the interviewer or selecting official doesn't think so you are not getting the job. In the end, employers have to believe in you as well.

4. With that being said, employers make the rules, create the doors, guard the doors, make the keys, and guard these keys. In other words, they have their definition of what it means to be confident, to believing in oneself and how these things are to displayed. It isn't just believing or having confidence it is also being able to display it in the manner that is expected.

5. Going outside of employment we live in what is called a society, unless one is the Unabomber living in a shack, with laws, social standards and other things. Others set these rules and standards that one has little to no control over. It's sort of like voting. How much does my vote. It's one over the total population who voted. My power compared to the masses is minuscule. When it comes to the social aspect like eye contact I, as the individual, get no vote on this.

6. From all of this we're all expected to follow a socially approved self we have zero vote, representation or say in.

7. Another thing, how is confidence and believing in oneself all that is cracked up to be? Let's look at Donald Trump. You and I both agree he is a s**t so let's use him as an example of something. He knew what to say and how say it. And, he became president. How can a man who lies constantly, grabs women by the p**** and other things have been considered the best confident. Because he knows how to play the social game better then most people? How was he selected as the best candidate amongst all of them?

Who voted for him? People did. The very same people (some not all) who say to believe in oneself and be confident. Trump is extremely confident and believes in himself immensely. Is this a guy we want? Is this the sort of confident guy you'd want as an employee? I know I would not. The man is despicable. If we must have confidence as a criteria then shouldn't one have humility as well. I will give an example.

I believe I can do the duties of a janitor. I'm not the best right now due to motor coordination issues. I'm probably a D+ or C-. But, I believe I could get better as time went by. Would employers accept this or would they say I lacked confidence b/c I interjected humility and honesty. That's the problem. If this would be unacceptable to average employer then one is forced to be dishonest and act like Trump. Do you see the problem? When I'm told to be confident and believe in myself the first image that comes to mind is Trump and those snake oil salesmen like them who are the scum of the Earth.



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14 Jan 2019, 10:25 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Kiprobalhato wrote:
how on earth is an aspie supposed to know if their "presence" is off putting or not?


By observing others' reactions to us. Body language, facial expressions, words/town of voice etc. We have to rely on others as if they are mirrors.. and their reactions to us reflect back what we're putting out. If others' reactions to us are negative, chances are pretty good that we're being "off putting," to them.

The worst is when we're completely oblivious to their reactions to us, of course. But by making a conscious effort to pay attention to others' reactions to us, it can help us realize when we're making mistakes & know that we need to adjust what we're doing.. or remove ourselves from their presence asap to avoid further mistakes.


All of this is true. I usually take the remove myself from their presence route.



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03 Jun 2019, 4:06 am

Fireblossom wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
So, let's get to a corollary based upon what I said. If one wants to succeed (as defined by the average person) in the USA then one is going to have to learn to follow the social standards, give the pat answers, display the right attitude and right non-verbal language. As for me. I'm 39. I'm on SSDI. I'm tired. I have zero desire to be something I'm not and even if I wanted to I don't think I could anyway. So, I don't give two s**ts anymore. Ultimately, it is one's own choice what one does or doesn't do. I've made mine.


Well yeah, that's how it goes literally everywhere, the rules are just a bit different sometimes depending on the culture. I get it that it sucks for you, but it's a must because if everyone got to create their own rules society wouldn't work at all. Rules are simply needed in places that have a lot of people and it's impossible for them to please everyone.


Fireblossom, I don't know if you're still paying attention to this or not but I want to add to this. The US differs on this. The rest of the world admits that there are standards one must conform to whether it is through law or the social veneer. What the US does is pretends that one can be oneself, be an individual, be true to who you are when it is not true. It isn't the whole conforming thing. It's the whole deceptive and double think that is the issue at hand.

If one is expected to conform then say so like everyone else does.

It's be yourself yet be yourself like everyone else! The USA is a conformist culture like others. We just don't want to admit that. That's the major difference. It's the lying and the whole double-think.



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03 Jun 2019, 6:05 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
So, let's get to a corollary based upon what I said. If one wants to succeed (as defined by the average person) in the USA then one is going to have to learn to follow the social standards, give the pat answers, display the right attitude and right non-verbal language. As for me. I'm 39. I'm on SSDI. I'm tired. I have zero desire to be something I'm not and even if I wanted to I don't think I could anyway. So, I don't give two s**ts anymore. Ultimately, it is one's own choice what one does or doesn't do. I've made mine.


Well yeah, that's how it goes literally everywhere, the rules are just a bit different sometimes depending on the culture. I get it that it sucks for you, but it's a must because if everyone got to create their own rules society wouldn't work at all. Rules are simply needed in places that have a lot of people and it's impossible for them to please everyone.


Fireblossom, I don't know if you're still paying attention to this or not but I want to add to this. The US differs on this. The rest of the world admits that there are standards one must conform to whether it is through law or the social veneer. What the US does is pretends that one can be oneself, be an individual, be true to who you are when it is not true. It isn't the whole conforming thing. It's the whole deceptive and double think that is the issue at hand.

If one is expected to conform then say so like everyone else does.

It's be yourself yet be yourself like everyone else! The USA is a conformist culture like others. We just don't want to admit that. That's the major difference. It's the lying and the whole double-think.


I'm still here. Again, I think it's like that everywhere... or at least, it is also like that where I'm from. People are told to be themselves, yet if what something is is "too different" from mainstream then that's a bad thing, even if they truly aren't harming anyone. I can understand that if someone being who they want to be actually harms the people or things around them then something must be done, but things like an adult dressing in bright colors or not looking others in the eyes don't actually harm anyone... and yet, many think it's not okay.



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03 Jun 2019, 8:20 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Believe in Yourself or you need to believe in yourself more!
Sound advice, because if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is likely to believe in you either.
cubedemon6073 wrote:
... Do you believe in me?
I don't know you well enough to even not believe in you. Right now, you're just an identity on a website -- possibly an A.I. programmed to present a self-pitying and contentious attitude (although that possibility is extremely remote).
cubedemon6073 wrote:
Enough for you to hire me for any position at your company?
What is your skillset? What is you curriculum vitae? What is your experience? These are the more pertinent questions.
cubedemon6073 wrote:
Even being a janitor?
No. I outsource that function to a Sikh family business. They're prompt, they're thorough, they work fast, and I don't have to provide them anything other than a flat rate for 4 hours of service once a week.
cubedemon6073 wrote:
If you don't have a company or own a business then pretend you do?
I practically do; I mean, I do a lot of hiring and firing around here.
cubedemon6073 wrote:
If you don't believe in me enough to hire me or give me the time of day then why in the f**k should I believe in myself?
Because someone else may want to hire you, and with that attitude, they're not likely to hire you either. So stop trying to make your attitude someone else's responsibility.
cubedemon6073 wrote:
Will my believing in myself change the outcome of your decision to hire me?
Maybe. Maybe not. It mostly depends on if your skillset matches our needs. Attitude counts, but if I go six months without finding a more suitable candidate, a person with a bad attitude may be my only choice. Is your skillset so much in demand that you can afford to be unpleasant?
cubedemon6073 wrote:
Let's say the answer is no...
Then this conversation is over. Apparently, you have already decided what my answer should be, and you seem unlikely to accept the truth instead.


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cubedemon6073
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04 Jun 2019, 2:54 am

Quote:
Sound advice, because if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is likely to believe in you either.


Assuming that I have god-like control over others in this way does it mean that if I believe in myself others will believe in me to and my god-like control will apply to the converse?

Quote:
Right now, you're just an identity on a website -- possibly an A.I. programmed to present a self-pitying and contentious attitude (although that possibility is extremely remote).


You're an identity as well on a website and you could be an A.I. programmed to present a cultish attitude (like other ppl who say similar things) who is never open to question. And, this possibility is extremely remote as well.

Quote:
What is your skillset? What is you curriculum vitae? What is your experience? These are the more pertinent questions.


My question was rhetorical. Point is when a person is telling me to believe in myself more then they should believe I'm competent to work for them. Are they willing to invest in me, mentor me, be my henry higgins, help me to gain whatever skillset I need. Are those who say that I believe in myself more willing to do these things? Point is put your money and time where your mouth is. If your not willing to do these things then how can one tell me to believe in myself more if one doesn't believe in me to do these things?

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No. I outsource that function to a Sikh family business. They're prompt, they're thorough, they work fast, and I don't have to provide them anything other than a flat rate for 4 hours of service once a week.


rethorical question

Quote:
I practically do; I mean, I do a lot of hiring and firing around here.


ok

Quote:
Because someone else may want to hire you, and with that attitude, they're not likely to hire you either.


not necessarily! Point is if one is not willing to take a chance on you themselves then it is hypocritical to tell a person to believe in themselves. It's like a person believes I can mow lawns yet doesn't trust me to mow their lawn or establish some sort of contract. It's nimby (not in my back yard) but believe I can for others.

Quote:
So stop trying to make your attitude someone else's responsibility.


My response is not mostly to you. Stop being hypocritical! If you (audience) believe I should believe in myself more then believe in me as well as to mentor me, hire me, help me gain such skill sets if needed, etc. If you're not an employer then are you willing to be my Henry Higgins and are you willing to put up your own money (if you have it) or time? Telling someone to believe in oneself is devoid of substance if you don't believe in me enough to invest your money and time is hypocritical. If you don't believe in me to do these things (don't claim you believe in me when we established that you're lying through your actions or lack there) then how does it make sense for me to believe in myself when I'm in a world that requires dual or more transactional relationships. In other words, I can believe in myself all I want, this doesn't mean others will believe in me and a person's belief or lack thereof determines how that person regard me.

Quote:
Maybe. Maybe not. It mostly depends on if your skillset matches our needs. Attitude counts, but if I go six months without finding a more suitable candidate, a person with a bad attitude may be my only choice. Is your skillset so much in demand that you can afford to be unpleasant?


Asking questions and questioning a belief system is "being unpleasant?" Look Fnord, whatever job I can get or have I'm willing to bust my ass and do whatever it takes to get the job done. But, optimism and a positive attitude without a reality check is absurd. I believe in myself. I believe I'm an excellent programmer. I created a tic tac toe game with an AI player long, long ago. I believe I am capable of either doing the tasks to do programming work or learning them. I believe I can obtain the certs. What does this mean though? Is my belief grounded in reality though? How am I stacked against others? Am I really as good as I think I am without some measurement tool that would help me to determine so. Compared to the average joe I'm good but to other programmers maybe I'm medicore.

And, even if I was good, got the certs, read the books, learned multiple languages almost every employer requires multi-skill sets (which change with the wind) all requiring years of experience which means employers are risk adverse (and I'm expected to be risk seeking) or IT is simply not a hot field as is claimed. And, if something is actually my fault or I'm looking at something wrong then I have zero clue as to what that is and telling me to believe in myself more and/or be more positive does nothing for me. These things have no substance to be backed from.

Quote:
Let's say the answer is no...Then this conversation is over. Apparently, you have already decided what my answer should be, and you seem unlikely to accept the truth instead.


And, what truth is that I'm not accepting Fnord? And, how have I decided that your answer is no. "Let's say the answer is no.." is equivalent to a hypothetical, if.. then or implication.

Example: If the bunny is pink, then it will hop four times.

You're saying I said the bunny is pink. Nowhere did I say the bunny is pink and why even start the conversation to simply end the conversation. I said "IF" the bunny is pink. Why say anything to me at all? Why bother responding? How does your behavior and your response even make sense?



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05 Jun 2019, 2:43 pm

Since some people will never acknowledge reality I'm going to lay down some truths myself.

A. Where I come from (the USA) is a fake and phony culture. That's the first thing.

B. Like everywhere else, we're all expected to follow a set of social standards and conform and contort ourselves to them. In other words, we're a conformist culture as well as everyone else in the world yet we're to pretend to be individualistic.

C. We as a fake, phony and conformist culture do not acknowledge we are a conformist culture. We like to claim and pretend we're a individualistic culture but most certainly we are not especially when it comes to employment.

D. It isn't about being optimistic, being and feeling positive. It's actually being able to project optimism and positivity to others whether one feels it or not is naturally an optimistic person.

E. No one can be themselves. The default self(s) are chosen for you.

F. For differing social situations one is expected to learn the correct responses and correct mannerisms.

G. In the USA, one is not allowed to even ask for help or assistance except through the right channels and the only way through those right channels is if you have the cash.

H. For employment all of this is true in addition to having a skill set.

I. It is always your fault and responsibility no matter the situation!

This is the double-think of Orwell in the USA.



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22 Oct 2019, 9:41 pm

shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
Confidence not proportional to competence


Yet, it is proportional to competence. Without a certain minimum amount of competence that backs up that confidence all one is doing is projecting false confidence and that is being a liar, disingenuous and being a braggart.



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23 Oct 2019, 8:06 pm

Why it is true and why it is bullcrap;
Dunning-Krugger effect, and then Subconscious programming via Positive Mantras with the effects of Self-fulfilling prophecies...

Equals to greater confusion in between. :lol:


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