Framework for Care of Upset Person

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magz
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25 Oct 2021, 8:30 am

If you do not agree to the rules of WrongPlanet.net, you should not post on WrongPlanet.net.
If you do not agree to The Haven rules, you should not post in The Haven. Some users indeed avoid The Haven for this reason.
Simple as that.


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badRobot
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25 Oct 2021, 8:38 am

magz wrote:
If you do not agree to the rules of WrongPlanet.net, you should not post on WrongPlanet.net.
If you do not agree to The Haven rules, you should not post in The Haven. Some users indeed avoid The Haven for this reason.
Simple as that.

Yes, and if a black passenger doesn't agree to move to the rear of the bus when a white passenger asks for his seat, he should not commute by bus.

Do you realize some rules and approaches are fundamentally wrong and should be questioned, discussed and changed?



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25 Oct 2021, 8:43 am

badRobot wrote:
magz wrote:
If you do not agree to the rules of WrongPlanet.net, you should not post on WrongPlanet.net.
If you do not agree to The Haven rules, you should not post in The Haven. Some users indeed avoid The Haven for this reason.
Simple as that.
Yes, and if a black passenger doesn't agree to move to the rear of the bus when a white passenger asks for his seat, he should not commute by bus.

Do you realize some rules and approaches are fundamentally wrong and should be questioned, discussed and changed?
Equating the rules of WrongPlanet with Jim Crow laws is disingenuous, to say the least.

Since you do not like the way this website is run, then there is no reason for you to post on this website at all.



badRobot
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25 Oct 2021, 8:48 am

Fnord wrote:
badRobot wrote:
magz wrote:
If you do not agree to the rules of WrongPlanet.net, you should not post on WrongPlanet.net.
If you do not agree to The Haven rules, you should not post in The Haven. Some users indeed avoid The Haven for this reason.
Simple as that.
Yes, and if a black passenger doesn't agree to move to the rear of the bus when a white passenger asks for his seat, he should not commute by bus.

Do you realize some rules and approaches are fundamentally wrong and should be questioned, discussed and changed?
Equating the rules of WrongPlanet with Jim Crow laws is disingenuous, to say the least.

Since you do not like the way this website is run, then there is no reason for you to post on this website at all.


No, what you are doing is disingenuous and immoral. Instead of having a discussion you are trying to make me leave.

Do you realize that if what someone is after doesn't solve his problem and he is not aware of the real solution this is not true informed choice?

Offering a patient what this patient is after without giving this patient alternatives and making sure this is his informed choice was common practice just recently, but now considered to be unethical.

What "The Haven" rules enforce is almost as bad as gaslighting.



magz
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25 Oct 2021, 8:51 am

badRobot wrote:
Do you realize some rules and approaches are fundamentally wrong and should be questioned, discussed and changed?
They are. The Haven rules were rewritten a year ago, based on rich experience of problems encountered there before. They have just been updated with additional guidelines, too.

There's a whole world online and offline outside of WP. If you believe you would save people by acting against WP rules (and against generally recognized psychology, too), do it outside of WP.


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badRobot
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25 Oct 2021, 9:00 am

magz wrote:
badRobot wrote:
Do you realize some rules and approaches are fundamentally wrong and should be questioned, discussed and changed?
They are. The Haven rules were rewritten a year ago, based on rich experience of problems encountered there before. They have just been updated with additional guidelines, too.

Yeah, and I think approach and rules can be further improved to take moral dilemmas and negative misbeliefs into account. To make something to raise awareness, maybe prevent toxic "supportive" users from attacking people who are trying to offer valid solutions.

magz wrote:
There's a whole world online and offline outside of WP. If you believe you would save people by acting against WP rules (and against generally recognized psychology, too), do it outside of WP.

That would the extension of the same unethical behavior. I know many struggling people on the spectrum gravitate to this place, if I really want to improve situation, really help people, this is my place. This is my right to question rules and approaches. It is not up to you to decide. Telling me to leave instead of acknowledging my points is just wrong.



Last edited by badRobot on 25 Oct 2021, 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

magz
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25 Oct 2021, 9:03 am

badRobot wrote:
Telling me to leave instead of acknowledging my points is just wrong.

You know that there were some guys who told me exactly this when I removed their nasty racist attacks?


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badRobot
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25 Oct 2021, 9:08 am

magz wrote:
You know that there were some guys who told me exactly the same when I removed their nasty racist attacks?

And? How does it prove your point? Murderers say they are innocent, does it mean all people who say they are innocent are murderers? Why are you doing this? You are being dishonest using these arguments, what you are doing right now is immoral.



magz
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25 Oct 2021, 9:12 am

The rules don't change because someone comes up thinking they're unfair.

So, again:
If you don't agree to post within the rules, don't post.
Simple as that.

WrongPlanet.net is not essential to anyone's survival (or at least it shouldn't be). There are other communities, with various rule sets, online and offline, and everyone can try to start their own one.


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badRobot
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25 Oct 2021, 9:19 am

magz wrote:
The rules don't change because someone comes up thinking they're unfair.

This is literally how all rules and laws change over time. Because at some point someone comes up thinking they're unfair.

magz wrote:
So, again:
If you don't agree to post within the rules, don't post.
Simple as that.

WrongPlanet.net is not essential to anyone's survival (or at least it shouldn't be). There are other communities, with various rule sets, online and offline, and everyone can try to start their own one.


Again, I'm trying to follow the rules. And I believe I'm following rules to both letter and spirit. I do disagree with some of these rules and your interpretation. I'm in the full right to have this discussion. Your argument "if you disagree - leave" is immoral and wrong not just in the meaning of illogical, it is morally wrong.



magz
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25 Oct 2021, 9:20 am

You have a right to have this discussion and we're having it.

Usually rules and laws change because people find out the outcome is undesirable while someone (e.g. other country) with a bit different law set has better outcomes.
That's the way that led to the current set of The Haven rules. We looked at outcomes.


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Fnord
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25 Oct 2021, 9:21 am

badRobot wrote:
... what you are doing is disingenuous and immoral...
Your comments are acknowledged as irrelevant.  While you have the right to discuss your grievances, posting them anywhere on this website is a privilege that can be revoked at any time.



badRobot
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25 Oct 2021, 9:22 am

magz wrote:
You have a right to have this discussion and we're having it.

You are telling me to leave instead of considering validity of points made. You are effectively preventing this discussion from happening. This not what I would consider "having a discussion".



Fnord
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25 Oct 2021, 9:24 am

badRobot wrote:
magz wrote:
You have a right to have this discussion and we're having it.
You are telling me to leave instead of considering validity of points made. You are effectively preventing this discussion from happening. This not what I would consider "having a discussion".
No one is telling you to leave; however, your option to leave is being strongly pointed out.



magz
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25 Oct 2021, 9:24 am

What discussion am I preventing from happening? The one we're currently having?


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badRobot
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25 Oct 2021, 9:27 am

Fnord wrote:
badRobot wrote:
... what you are doing is disingenuous and immoral...
Your comments are acknowledged as irrelevant.  While you have the right to discuss your grievances, posting them anywhere on this website is a privilege that can be revoked at any time.

No. Replies like "If I throw you a fish will you leave?" is not what I consider acknowledging of points made and reasoning of irrelevance of my points. This is dismissive, insulting and toxic behavior. What you are doing is the same. Address my points or leave me alone, please.