Framework for Care of Upset Person

Page 7 of 14 [ 212 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 14  Next

badRobot
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 824

25 Oct 2021, 11:03 am

magz wrote:
Physical exercise is not the only thing needed to a person's mental well-being. It's not even the main thing.

I never said that.

magz wrote:
Your claims for this approach go against mainstream psychology and experience of WP users who successfully healed their mental health issues. Thus, you would need extraordinarily strong evidence to prove you're right. Your very strong belief is not evidence.

What you are saying is nonsense. It can't go against psychology just like chemistry can't go against fine arts. Or physics can't go against interpretative dance.

magz wrote:
Pushing your advice to a distressed person when they already rejected it is violating their boundaries, dismissing their feelings and victim blaming them for their unhappiness. That's harmful "adding insult to injury". The rules can't be changed nor bent to allow it.

No, consistently challenging false beliefs of hopelessness of a distressed person is the only way to really help this person. Making person feel bad about their life choices instead of something beyond their control is giving this person internal locus of control and hope. This is not victim blaming, basically the opposite of it.

You are using surface level awareness of these concepts without real understanding.



magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,317
Location: Poland

25 Oct 2021, 11:07 am

badRobot wrote:
magz wrote:
Pushing your advice to a distressed person when they already rejected it is violating their boundaries, dismissing their feelings and victim blaming them for their unhappiness. That's harmful "adding insult to injury". The rules can't be changed nor bent to allow it.

No, consistently challenging false beliefs of hopelessness of a distressed person is the only way to really help this person. Making person feel bad about their life choices instead of something beyond their control is giving this person internal locus of control and hope.

This is exactly the part against the mainstream psychology.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


badRobot
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 824

25 Oct 2021, 11:13 am

magz wrote:
badRobot wrote:
magz wrote:
Pushing your advice to a distressed person when they already rejected it is violating their boundaries, dismissing their feelings and victim blaming them for their unhappiness. That's harmful "adding insult to injury". The rules can't be changed nor bent to allow it.

No, consistently challenging false beliefs of hopelessness of a distressed person is the only way to really help this person. Making person feel bad about their life choices instead of something beyond their control is giving this person internal locus of control and hope.

This is exactly the part against the mainstream psychology.

No. This is the part of mainstream psychology I agree the most, this is what CBT is all about.

Quote:
Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a psycho-social intervention[1][2] that aims to improve mental health.[3] CBT focuses on challenging and changing cognitive distortions (e.g. thoughts, beliefs, and attitudes) and behaviors, improving emotional regulation,[2][4] and the development of personal coping strategies that target solving current problems.



magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,317
Location: Poland

25 Oct 2021, 11:16 am

Are you a trained CBT therapist who knows correct implementation, strengths and limitations of this method?

Hint: easily googlable limitation of CBT is that the patient needs to commit to the therapy first.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


badRobot
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 824

25 Oct 2021, 11:18 am

magz wrote:
Are you a trained CBT therapist who knows correct implementation, strengths and limitations of this method?

Are you a trained CBT therapist who knows correct implementation, strengths and limitations of this method?



funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 37
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 17,924
Location: I'm right here

25 Oct 2021, 11:20 am

badRobot wrote:
magz wrote:
Are you a trained CBT therapist who knows correct implementation, strengths and limitations of this method?

Are you a trained CBT therapist who knows correct implementation, strengths and limitations of this method?


Unless you are you shouldn't be implementing those therapies, certainly not unless someone has hired you and consented to them. No one needs to be a trained CBT therapist to tell you that attempting to practice on patients who haven't consented isn't ethical.



Last edited by funeralxempire on 25 Oct 2021, 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

IsabellaLinton
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Nov 2017
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 49,505

25 Oct 2021, 11:22 am

Thanks for posting your list of care recommendations, FXE. I think it sounds helpful and I'm glad Cornflake has incorporated it. I agree that different strategies work for different people. For example, I don't respond to physical exercise or going outside, and in fact that makes my anxiety worse. I'm diagnosed with Agoraphobia and Scopophobia with panic attacks, as well as Photophobia (extreme sensitivity to daylight which can make me physically ill, and always makes me shut down for a few days' recovery afterward). I do best in safe places indoors where I can cocoon and manage my own sensory environment.

Likewise CBT does NOT work for me. It actually makes my depression / anxiety / trauma worse. CBT is proven to be a less-effective treatment approach for people on the spectrum than other forms of therapeutic intervention, although of course some people do respond well to it if they've made a strong and trusting connection with their therapist.

Thanks again for posting, funeralx.



EdCase
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 51
Location: Trapped in my head

25 Oct 2021, 11:24 am

It does seem a little ironic that BR seems upset and the methodology at the beginning of the Topic isn't being used, and that a conversation about caring turns into a fight.

As someone who doesn't get a lot of time to spend on here and doesn't have history with anyone I'm disappointed by how the conversation is going.

BR, you do come off as passionate, and also antagonistic (at least in this thread). I get that you have some strongly held views that make perfect sense to you and that you have thought about a lot. I happen to be quite interested in diet, exercise, hormones, receptors, etc. currently. However, I can't think what outcome you're trying to achieve though. If it is to change people's minds and have them agree with you, then a perceived aggressive approach is unlikely to have that effect. If it is to win a conversation and be right, well, I'm not sure there's much value in that, even if it were possible. If you're seeking validation for your perspective, well, putting it out there is ok but maybe people just don't agree with you, or don't understand it and don't care to. Text can be an amazing communication mechanism but rarely when someone is angry. Repeating the same message/argument in slightly different ways doesn't usually change anyone's mind either; not pleasantly. A super technical and hard to read/understand perspective isn't useful either. I know I wouldn't be able to have a specific in depth discussion about brain chemistry and depression and how it may or may not might be changed in specific ways by doing specific things. Just because I couldn't do that doesn't make me an idiot. You might be right, you might be wrong, how would I know? Also, what works for one person doesn't universally have the same effect for everyone. Things are complicated and I personally distrust anyone who 'has the answer' and doesn't approach a conversation with the humility that they might be wrong. I get that you're upset how you've been treated. What outcome do you expect/want the way you've been going about the conversation to have? I hope you don't feel attacked by what I've written; I'm genuinely confused by your behaviour and how it is likely to end in a positive outcome. Is it that this conversation is a hangover from some other conversation that has upset you previously? As I said, I'm confused.

It's quite clear that some people are annoyed by BR and his views and the way he goes about expressing them. You could just ignore BR. Nobody is forcing you to reply, agree, or engage with him in any way. Some of the behaviour has fed the flames as it were and seems as though it was intended to score points. Just seems a pointless waste of time, bandwidth, and storage.

This message is probably a waste of time too. I'd just like to ask everyone feeling irate to check yourselves.


_________________
ASD (Lvl2), ADHD Inattentive Moderate


funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 37
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 17,924
Location: I'm right here

25 Oct 2021, 11:25 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Thanks for posting your list of care recommendations, FXE. I think it sounds helpful and I'm glad Cornflake has incorporated it. I agree that different strategies work for different people. For example, I don't respond to physical exercise or going outside, and in fact that makes my anxiety worse. I'm diagnosed with Agoraphobia and Scopophobia with panic attacks, as well as Photophobia (extreme sensitivity to daylight which can make me physically ill, and always makes me shut down for a few days' recovery afterward). I do best in safe places indoors where I can cocoon and manage my own sensory environment.

Likewise CBT does NOT work for me. It actually makes my depression / anxiety / trauma worse. CBT is proven to be a less-effective treatment approach for people on the spectrum than other forms of therapeutic intervention, although of course some people do respond well to it if they've made a strong and trusting connection with their therapist.

Thanks again for posting, funeralx.


You're welcome and that you for bringing up the bolded parts that help further establish that a one-size fits all approach isn't suited for this community.



Last edited by funeralxempire on 25 Oct 2021, 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,317
Location: Poland

25 Oct 2021, 11:26 am

I don't do CBT so I don't need to be trained on it.
I believe those who wrote this are specialists on it. Challenging patient's beliefs happen in safe, structured settings and require patient's cooperation before they start.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 37
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 17,924
Location: I'm right here

25 Oct 2021, 11:31 am

EdCase wrote:
It does seem a little ironic that BR seems upset and the methodology at the beginning of the Topic isn't being used, and that a conversation about caring turns into a fight.

As someone who doesn't get a lot of time to spend on here and doesn't have history with anyone I'm disappointed by how the conversation is going.

BR, you do come off as passionate, and also antagonistic (at least in this thread). I get that you have some strongly held views that make perfect sense to you and that you have thought about a lot. I happen to be quite interested in diet, exercise, hormones, receptors, etc. currently. However, I can't think what outcome you're trying to achieve though. If it is to change people's minds and have them agree with you, then a perceived aggressive approach is unlikely to have that effect. If it is to win a conversation and be right, well, I'm not sure there's much value in that, even if it were possible. If you're seeking validation for your perspective, well, putting it out there is ok but maybe people just don't agree with you, or don't understand it and don't care to. Text can be an amazing communication mechanism but rarely when someone is angry. Repeating the same message/argument in slightly different ways doesn't usually change anyone's mind either; not pleasantly. A super technical and hard to read/understand perspective isn't useful either. I know I wouldn't be able to have a specific in depth discussion about brain chemistry and depression and how it may or may not might be changed in specific ways by doing specific things. Just because I couldn't do that doesn't make me an idiot. You might be right, you might be wrong, how would I know? Also, what works for one person doesn't universally have the same effect for everyone. Things are complicated and I personally distrust anyone who 'has the answer' and doesn't approach a conversation with the humility that they might be wrong. I get that you're upset how you've been treated. What outcome do you expect/want the way you've been going about the conversation to have? I hope you don't feel attacked by what I've written; I'm genuinely confused by your behaviour and how it is likely to end in a positive outcome. Is it that this conversation is a hangover from some other conversation that has upset you previously? As I said, I'm confused.

It's quite clear that some people are annoyed by BR and his views and the way he goes about expressing them. You could just ignore BR. Nobody is forcing you to reply, agree, or engage with him in any way. Some of the behaviour has fed the flames as it were and seems as though it was intended to score points. Just seems a pointless waste of time, bandwidth, and storage.

This message is probably a waste of time too. I'd just like to ask everyone feeling irate to check yourselves.


The problem is that the poster has a long history of taking that same antagonistic approach to other posters who are in crisis and upon return from discipline over that behaviour the first thing they do is immediately start up those fights again.

It seems rules are being adjusted to further discourage that behaviour after conversation on how to improve things but that conversation has been interrupted by that poster wanting to refight a battle over whether or not their abusive behaviour is tolerated, they've already received the answer and that answer is no.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 56,888
Location: Stendec

25 Oct 2021, 11:35 am

EdCase wrote:
It's quite clear that some people are annoyed by BR and his views and the way he goes about expressing them. You could just ignore BR. Nobody is forcing you to reply, agree, or engage with him in any way. Some of the behaviour has fed the flames as it were and seems as though it was intended to score points. Just seems a pointless waste of time, bandwidth, and storage.
The idea (as far as I am concerned) is to achieve 100% compliance with The Rules of The Haven, because they seem to be written with the emotional welfare of troubled individuals in mind.  This is of paramount importance, leaving all other considerations in the rubbish bin.

(Remember to shut off your siglines in The Haven, folks!)



magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,317
Location: Poland

25 Oct 2021, 11:36 am

Fnord wrote:
(Remember to shut off your siglines in The Haven, folks!)

I believe mine is okay ;)


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 56,888
Location: Stendec

25 Oct 2021, 11:39 am

magz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
(Remember to shut off your siglines in The Haven, folks!)
I believe mine is okay.
Hmm... It is not so much the content as the potential for someone to take personal offense.


_________________
 
• Veritas Illuminata • Semper Illuminans •


funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 37
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 17,924
Location: I'm right here

25 Oct 2021, 11:41 am

It's gonna take awhile to get used to whether it's a blanket ban or has leeway. I wonder if it's an option to turn them off server-side instead of relying on peoples memories?


_________________
You can't buy happiness; steal it.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,317
Location: Poland

25 Oct 2021, 11:44 am

funeralxempire wrote:
It's gonna take awhile to get used to whether it's a blanket ban or has leeway. I wonder if it's an option to turn them off server-side instead of relying on peoples memories?

That's a question to Cornflake.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>