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ihtw
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02 Aug 2008, 10:35 pm

Lets start with who I am:
I am a 20 year old boy from a place north in Europe. I don't want to say much more right know actually from where, because I have a feeling somone in constantly watching me anywhere (I really know it is not true, but I am like forced to think that way).

My life has just been like a hope for something better for the last 7 years or so. Around 7 years ago my best friend together with some others just suddenly without me knowing what was going on became my enemy. My only connections at that time. Right now all I can think about is all the time I've just been thinking that "maybe in some time, it may get better". I have no friends, nobody to talk to. Just lost my last hope some weeks ago.

I have something like a list in my head with things that can help me out of my situation. A couple of weeks ago, the last one was removed from the list. All that is left, is nothing. Nothing to think forward for, all is just .. nothing.

I just want someone to talk to when I want, someone to do fun things together with. I've had some persons I think could have done that to me. I've been using months and years for each of them just trying to get their attention. After years of trying, I just reach a point where there is something in my way. There is nobody else, everyone on my list is gone.

I have seen people standing right in front of me telling me they want to be my friend, they can help me, they want to help me.. and days, weeks or months after, they are gone. This happens all the time.

Right now the only thing I want to do is to die. I can't make it anymore. It is just pain to see others do everyting I want, and seeing they think of it as something that "is just there" without they having to do anyting for it.

My family, and others I don't trust and don't want anything with just does not care for anything other that I am alive, and I can't think about how they would feel if I one day was gone. That is just what keeping me from suicide, and has been for years.

I don't know what to do, what I can do, what I need to do, I just don't want to fight anymore, for nothing else than pain.



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02 Aug 2008, 10:58 pm

Dear ihtw,

It is very late here and I can't write much, but I have been where you are and there is hope. Start with knowing that the past does not equal the future and you have done a marvelous thing to share your struggle with this group. This group is helping me very much. AND there are other things you can do, so please hang in there. I will write more tomorrow.

Relax, breathe, try not to think about your situation right now. Just do the basics and hang in there for a bit.

Talk to you tomorrow.


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"Do not think, 'I am alone.'" Sasaki Roshi
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02 Aug 2008, 11:04 pm

Welcome to WrongPlanet.

I hate being left out, too. I used to try very hard to make friends. Eventually, I found that if I tried less hard I had better luck. After 51.5 years I have a few friends that know me and like me anyway. Some I've known almost 30 years.

Anyone can be friends when it's easy. Our friends won't always understand us, but the good ones will be friends anyway. There aren't many people like that so it takes a while to find them. Meanwhile, you can share with us.


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03 Aug 2008, 6:21 pm

ihtw wrote:
Lets start with who I am:
I am a 20 year old boy from a place north in Europe. I don't want to say much more right know actually from where, because I have a feeling somone in constantly watching me anywhere (I really know it is not true, but I am like forced to think that way).

My life has just been like a hope for something better for the last 7 years or so. Around 7 years ago my best friend together with some others just suddenly without me knowing what was going on became my enemy. My only connections at that time. Right now all I can think about is all the time I've just been thinking that "maybe in some time, it may get better". I have no friends, nobody to talk to. Just lost my last hope some weeks ago.

I have something like a list in my head with things that can help me out of my situation. A couple of weeks ago, the last one was removed from the list. All that is left, is nothing. Nothing to think forward for, all is just .. nothing.

I just want someone to talk to when I want, someone to do fun things together with. I've had some persons I think could have done that to me. I've been using months and years for each of them just trying to get their attention. After years of trying, I just reach a point where there is something in my way. There is nobody else, everyone on my list is gone.

I have seen people standing right in front of me telling me they want to be my friend, they can help me, they want to help me.. and days, weeks or months after, they are gone. This happens all the time.

Right now the only thing I want to do is to die. I can't make it anymore. It is just pain to see others do everyting I want, and seeing they think of it as something that "is just there" without they having to do anyting for it.

My family, and others I don't trust and don't want anything with just does not care for anything other that I am alive, and I can't think about how they would feel if I one day was gone. That is just what keeping me from suicide, and has been for years.

I don't know what to do, what I can do, what I need to do, I just don't want to fight anymore, for nothing else than pain.


Hi, ihtw, Welcome to WrongPlanet. Sorry it took me so long to get back. I live at a Zen center and Sunday mornings are our busy time. I need to be participating with what the group is doing. It's a requirement to live here. So finally I have Sunday afternoons off and I have some free time.

I am 55 now. I remember when I was 20 years old, in college, living by myself. Very poor. My parents had both died and my brothers and sisters didn't care about me. In fact, it seemed they looked down on me. I didn't know how to make friends, and at the time I didn't know I had Asperger's even. I just thought I was a loser who didn't know how to make friends. I was good at school, though, of course, and it seemed that the only speaking I would do during the day was to answer most of the questions in the classes I was in, because I was the smart kid, but I didn't have any friends. I remember noticing that I hadn't spoken to anyone socially for a week, not even to say hello, and it was probably longer than that. That was as far back as I remember. I started seeing a therapist and they treated me for depression, but not the underlying cause. So one night I found myself standing over my books with a razor blade in my hand. I never did anything. Partly because I thought that behavior was "mental illness." But I think there was also something deeper inside me that believed that I needed to give it a chance, that it was too soon to give up. And I was so right!

In college, going to class and speaking in class, plus I also studied ballet, so that kept me busy and with people in the evenings. These things simulated social interaction. But no one knew me. I knew I was different at least from grade school, if not before then. But it just got harder and harder, at first. So, like I said, college classes and ballet classes simulated a social life, but once I started working things got worse, because there was a smaller pool of people and generally one doesn't make many friends at work because you want to keep a professional distance. My loneliness got me into some bad situations sometimes because I was naive. I don't want to go into detail, but it was painful.

But eventually I started figuring some things out. I just learned I had Asperger's a few months ago, but now that I look back I was learning how to treat it myself, just by working on each symptom at a time.

I met someone who had traveled the world studying Zen for his junior year abroad. He was quite odd too. He was a quasi-boyfriend, but it was platonic and we wouldn't see each other a lot, so I still was feeling lonely. I went to a Zen retreat. I tell you more about it, but I'm not saying you should do that exactly. I did quite a few things to treat this thing I had with no name at the time. What I noticed about them is that they are all structured, so I feel safe doing them and each has controlled levels for getting enough social interaction to feel healthy, has opportunities to grow more, and has opportunities to find people who can accept my idiosycracies. Eventually, the people you share these with can become your friends. In the meantime, I would recommend that you are doing things to learn about how to have rewarding social interactions so that you can increase the length of these friendships and how good a friend they become: i.e., reading books on the subject, going to a therapist, and attending some form of group therapy.

Today, I can say I am a happy person. I have issues to deal with, but they are specific issues. They are not the color of my whole life, I have tools and skills to help me through them, and I know that I can make progress on each of them, as, with hard work, I have had my successes along the way.

So here are the structured activities that I joined and a few of the books I read. I read tons, because, even though it was helpful to see a therapist, I never found a great one, but I still think that you can appreciate them for what they're worth.

The activities I'll tell more about these after the book list):

--Zen practice (or Vipassana, Tibetan meditation, Shambala meditation, yoga meditation)
--12-step groups: Codependents Anonymous (we all are), Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families (just about every family), Al-Anon (when there was no other group), Emotions Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous (There may be different ones in your area. Search the web.)
--dancing (it's popular all over the world, including most of Europe-search for Lindy Hop. It's done to American swing music.)
--Group therapy, such as Dialectical Behavior Therapy
--Sharing a house with others
--Non-credit courses just for fun: swimming (not too social), wine tasting (very social), computer courses (semi social), cooking class (maybe more social)
--hiking clubs, biking clubs

Can you think of others you might try? Make sure that among them you pick things that will 1) improve your spirituality (i.e., relieve your egocentrism, a by-product of loneliness), 2) have you talking honestly with others (this is the meaning of intimacy), and 3) gives you aerobic exercise to increase your endorphins.

Books:

--books on making friends, overcoming shyness: I can't find the book I used to have on making friends, but it's basic idea was to go to places where people were doing things you liked to do. It takes the heat off and you can enjoy what you are doing, which puts you a bit more at ease and you might start to talk to others in a less self-conscious way.

--books on making good conversation.

--THIS BOOK IS IMPORTANT! <ital>Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy</ital> by David D. Burns, M.D. It teaches you the 10 most common dysfunctional thought patterns of depressed people and what the antidotes are to them. Anyone who suffers from depression (and feeling suicidal qualifies you for that) should know these and be skilled at rebutting them. They will help a lot.

--Of course books on Asperger's: check this site, and I think it has some on the social skills too.

--The Zen Path Through Depression, written by a zen student and a psychologist. This book helps you to not be afraid of your depression to watch it like a cloud going by, so that you neither push it away (in which case it sticks like fly paper) nor chase after it by feeding it with thoughts. You simply return to an awareness of your physical sensations. What does this depression FEEL like? Examine each part of your body to see where it resides in you and roll with it. I used to lie down and scan my body for what does depression "feel like." Just like clouds pass by, so do emotions. Of course, the whole bookk will go into greater detail.

--Dialectical Behavior Therapy Workbook: Practical DBT Exercises for Learning Mindfulness, Interpersonal Effectiveness, Emotion Regulation, & Distress Tolerance (New Harbinger Self-Help Workbook) by Matthew McKay, Jeffrey C. Wood, and Jeffrey Brantley

--People Skills: How to Assert Yourself, Listen to Others, and Resolve Conflicts by Robert Bolton: About Reflective Listening. When you get to know people, you inevitably find conflict. There is always a "delta," i.e., difference, which by definition creates conflict. If you're not finding the difference, you're not getting to know them. This book teaches you to actively hear the differences, so that you get to know the person without fighting them.

--Zen Mind, Beginners Mind by Suzuki Roshi. Very poetic and beautifully written. Very loving. Near the beginning he teaches basic meditation.

There are many more, but these are what I can think of now.

I will send this out now and take a break. Then I will send out a description of why I believe each of the activities I suggest can be helpful for Asperger's.

Please let me know how you are doing.

***Hugs!!***


_________________
"Me voici donc seul sur la terre, n'ayant plus de frère de prochain d'ami de société que moi-même." Jean-Jacques Rousseau
"Do not think, 'I am alone.'" Sasaki Roshi
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03 Aug 2008, 7:18 pm

ihtw wrote:
Lets start with who I am:
I am a 20 year old boy from a place north in Europe. I don't want to say much more right know actually from where, because I have a feeling somone in constantly watching me anywhere (I really know it is not true, but I am like forced to think that way).

My life has just been like a hope for something better for the last 7 years or so. Around 7 years ago my best friend together with some others just suddenly without me knowing what was going on became my enemy. My only connections at that time. Right now all I can think about is all the time I've just been thinking that "maybe in some time, it may get better". I have no friends, nobody to talk to. Just lost my last hope some weeks ago.

I have something like a list in my head with things that can help me out of my situation. A couple of weeks ago, the last one was removed from the list. All that is left, is nothing. Nothing to think forward for, all is just .. nothing.

I just want someone to talk to when I want, someone to do fun things together with. I've had some persons I think could have done that to me. I've been using months and years for each of them just trying to get their attention. After years of trying, I just reach a point where there is something in my way. There is nobody else, everyone on my list is gone.

I have seen people standing right in front of me telling me they want to be my friend, they can help me, they want to help me.. and days, weeks or months after, they are gone. This happens all the time.

Right now the only thing I want to do is to die. I can't make it anymore. It is just pain to see others do everyting I want, and seeing they think of it as something that "is just there" without they having to do anyting for it.

My family, and others I don't trust and don't want anything with just does not care for anything other that I am alive, and I can't think about how they would feel if I one day was gone. That is just what keeping me from suicide, and has been for years.

I don't know what to do, what I can do, what I need to do, I just don't want to fight anymore, for nothing else than pain.


So there's a lot to say. Which is to say that you have A LOT of opportunity in this world. You just don't know about it yet! :)

As I was reopening your post, I see that the Haven is right about the section on social skills. So, just for the record, because it's so obvious, this site has MUCHO resources, so please use those of course.

I'm keeping your quote above to remind me of where you're at. I remember that depression and loneliness actually have PHYSICAL pain. Isn't it amazing, but they do. I want to assure you that you can get out of it.

I remember having the weekend off from school or work and there was nothing fun for me to do because there was no one to do anything with, and I would watch groups of people sit down in a restaurant and laugh and talk so happily. How do they DO THAT????? Now you can see me doing with that with others! But one difference with me, I am passing on the word as to how to get to do that. I don't forget where I came from, and I am still partly there too, which I'm ok with now, as I have enough.

If you get strong enough someday, you might look these people up and find out if you have enough in common again to be friends. Even if that works with only one of them it would be good. If not, you can move on to other people and make a fresh start.

So here is what was good about each structured activity that I chose. Notice I said structured. I believe this is key for many of us as it takes the burden off the usual social requirement to make these complex and infathomable social arrangements.

--Zen. Being stuck in the notion that we are rigidly separate from others is the root of all loneliness and suffering. The notion of self is a practicality that we need to negotiate this body we're responsible for through the world in its day-to-day life. Without it, the wrong body would be fed, the wrong body put to bed, the body would be trying to do surgery it didn't know how to do, or sleeping with another body's wife. It could be very messy. After those practicalities, I can't think of any purpose this mental construct serves. Once we drop the thought that we are separate or any any ideas that separate us we EXPERIENCE the fact that we are all part of a seemless universe. We are like the right hand and the left hand of the same body. If the right hand is on fire, the left hand does not stop to consider whether it will help put out the fire. Notice that I emphasized EXPERIENCE. Please do not think about this. You will drive yourself nuts. It is like trying to think about why kissing would be so nice, when you never even met a person to whom you are romantically or sexually attracted. It has to be experienced, then it all comes clear.

But, even if you think that's mumbo jumbo, here are some practical things about Zen that I found very appealing: You sit in silence with a bunch of people who are doing the same thing, and if what they say about people on the autism spectrum is true, we like things that have very little sensual stimulation. Japanese style Zen uses black robes in an extremely simple environment, and the silence is wonderful. Depending on how experienced you get at this, you could be doing this from 25 minutes up to 90 days together. When it's one of the longer versions, 1 day up to say 90 or 100 days---but most typically 7 days, you will take a lot of breaks of course, and silence is kept and eyes are kept down. You don't have to look them in the eyes! Wheee hoo! A day off! But you work together, have meals together, navigate turns in the bathroom and shower. There are a few little signs, but everything is very logical and prescribed. After doing this together for this amount of time, you begin to feel more comfortable with the people, and you are more likely to chat with them when the retreat is over. There's usually a little party afterwards and you can stay or not, but you will start to feel more like you know them and you may want to chat with at least one or two. When every thing is kept so simple, thngs stand out, that maybe you can laugh about or remark about. Everyone is feeling closer to you too, so they are more likely to feel warmly towards you and receptive.

12 step groups: I call this "American Zen": Codependents Anonymous is about having healthy relationships, so it is perfect for people with Asperger's. It's anonymous. Since everyone is sharing very personal things about themselves, there is a built-in security device--everybody knows everybody's story, so everyone honors it. Therefore, until you have friends that are particular to you, you can people get to know you, because eventually, after listening to their stories, you are likely to start to tell yours. I found this very satisfying for this basic human need. Typically, most groups will have other activities before and after meetings. They often go out for a meal, snack, or coffee before or after the meeting, or they all stay and chat after the meeting. It's called the "meeting after the meeting." And as you get to know people, you can join in on this and practice your social skills. You can feel free to explain Asperger's in the group, because often there are people with various conditions and situations in such groups and you can say that therefore you will be practicing your social skills, so sometimes it mays seem forced, awkward, stilted, or you'll get it wrong. Most people will be helpful. Ignore anyone who isn't. At the end of the group there are optional hugs. I loved these with people I felt safe with. We all need hugs.

Swing dancing: No partner is required. There are classes at all levels. In the classes the leaders are spread out in a circle and the followers in a circle within it. You change partners every few minutes while you'll learning what the teacher is teaching. The teacher also suggests social behaviors, such as "Ok. Everybody rotate and introduce yourself to the next person." Once you get comfortable dancing with these people, you then have a group of people you can ask to dance at a dance. It is considered rude to turn somebody down, and it very rarely happens. A person would have to be truly tired, or not know how to do that particular dance, or it's just really too fast for them. So don't take that personally. I have seen people who clearly have Asperger's dance the night away. The physical touch is very good for depression, sharing the dancing is very social (you don't always have to talk), and the music and dancing get your endorphins going. I've done all of my vacations alone, either to a swing dance camp or a Zen retreat. I never have to worry about being alone for vacations. And they are usually priced at the lowest price they can to be all inclusive.

With these opportunities to interact with people, coupled by the reading, I think you have a lot of opportunities. Once you get the hang of it--structured social activities--I bet you'll find ones of you own. In the meantime, I urge you to do ANY of these that you can possibly do on your budget in your location, even if you think you won't like it. It's just to get started, and you will think, OK I'll liked it 30% of what I would have wanted and that's better than being home alone, and it will get you circulated so that you may find what you DO like.

Please get working on finding therapy, reading healthy books, and joining structured socializing groups. And please let us know how you are doing.

Good luck.

I hope someday your name stands for something like: "I honor the World," or "I hold the World..." in my heart, or, like the great bodhisatvas (good deed doers), "I hear the world" or you fill it in in a way that makes you happy.

All the best.


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"Me voici donc seul sur la terre, n'ayant plus de frère de prochain d'ami de société que moi-même." Jean-Jacques Rousseau
"Do not think, 'I am alone.'" Sasaki Roshi
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ihtw
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03 Aug 2008, 8:39 pm

Thank you, both all of you.

I am in a situation now where I don't want anything with other people. Just let them do whatever they want, and try not to think about it. Actually I don't want it, it is just the only way I am able to control my feelings.

I live in a small town, so there is not activities I can join (I don't know any), and I don't want it anyway. I just can't. There is no way I am able to do it. Just going into a store is something I mostly cannot. I is something like an anxiety where I think I have to do everyting "righ" and cannot do anything I am not totaly sure is "right". I may have to see some others do it, or it has to be written somewhere, like I would like a manual for every store or place I go to that tell me exactly what to do. That is also why I keep doing the same things all the time.

When I meet someone in a group or other place it is just like they ask me some standard questions. I cannot, even if I try, answer them. I have to go thru the same situation 5 or more times before I know what to say and do. I just remain silent most of the time, and people trying to get any contact just leave and do not retry.

Afterwards every situation I can think about what could I done better for hours day after day. I'm going thru the situation, what I should have done, how I would like it to be, and so on. It always end in crying anyway, and thinking about how bad everyting is, why I can't do what others do, and so on.

I have talked to some doctors, and they just want to treat me for depression. I don't know if I want that, because I think they will just have to increase and increase the dose anyway, because the underlying cause is not cured.



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03 Aug 2008, 10:03 pm

Then I'm sorry I wrote so much. I guess I just hope there's one thing in there that will help you. Maybe it's something to know that someone's cares. Any situation with attention and care can be improved. Maybe what your choice to do is the best--that is coming on line here with us and sharing. But I think PART of what the doctors are saying is right. A lot of people with Aspergers get depression because it is so hard. I would suggest then reading Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy. That is something that can help depression without increasing meds.

And you know what the underlying cause is, whether it's called Aspergers or social anxiety, whatever you want to call it. Clearly all that I have suggested is too much. Maybe just staying online with us is the best. It seems to be what you're saying you're ready for. Is that right?


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"Do not think, 'I am alone.'" Sasaki Roshi
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03 Aug 2008, 10:06 pm

By the way, are you being treated for depression? It really helps. Meds changed my life. It then gives you the ability to go out and address the underlying cause. Without them, you may know what it is, but you won't be able to treat it. What's your status on meds? PM me if you want to.


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"Do not think, 'I am alone.'" Sasaki Roshi
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03 Aug 2008, 10:23 pm

You should not be sorry you wrote so much, even if most of the content of the text does not help me now. I was a bit shocked after seeing how much time you must have used to write all that. I just mant to let you know that it means something to me anyway to see someone use any time for me.

I don't like reading books, and I havent been reading any "real" books for 10 years or so. I don't know why, but I don't want to let anyone know what I am doing, or what I am reading, or there is someone I don't want to let know (I don't know why), so it will just read what I can access on the Internet,on my password protected computers where nobody is able to see it.

I have a feeling that all information I share with anyone will be used against me some time. It is my experience from the past. Seems for me that years of bullying has done something to me.

I am not on any meds for depression now. I think I am in a sort of a waiting line for seeing a psychologist for that. You may be right anyway, it may be the way to go, but I know that it wouldn't help in the long term if I don't have any way to solve the underlaying problems.

It is a little hard for me to express what I want to in english, as that is not my first language, so there is much more I should and want to write that I just can't because I don't know how.



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04 Aug 2008, 8:30 pm

ihtw wrote:
You should not be sorry you wrote so much, even if most of the content of the text does not help me now. I was a bit shocked after seeing how much time you must have used to write all that. I just mant to let you know that it means something to me anyway to see someone use any time for me.

I don't like reading books, and I havent been reading any "real" books for 10 years or so. I don't know why, but I don't want to let anyone know what I am doing, or what I am reading, or there is someone I don't want to let know (I don't know why), so it will just read what I can access on the Internet,on my password protected computers where nobody is able to see it.

I have a feeling that all information I share with anyone will be used against me some time. It is my experience from the past. Seems for me that years of bullying has done something to me.

I am not on any meds for depression now. I think I am in a sort of a waiting line for seeing a psychologist for that. You may be right anyway, it may be the way to go, but I know that it wouldn't help in the long term if I don't have any way to solve the underlaying problems.

It is a little hard for me to express what I want to in english, as that is not my first language, so there is much more I should and want to write that I just can't because I don't know how.


Thanks for sharing and giving me an idea of how you're doing. Some of what you are describing sounds like paranoia, which could hold you back from getting a solution to your problem. I hope you get to see a theraphist soon. They are not perfect, but they can help.

Also, you seem very attached to what you like and don't like to do. This is a great obstacle to healing. You will have to do things that you don't like to become happy. Doing only what you like is a very sad prison. Please open the door.


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"Do not think, 'I am alone.'" Sasaki Roshi
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04 Aug 2008, 8:35 pm

I've been too depressed to do anything for at least 2 weeks. But today I finally started cleaning the house. So I guess I'm doing a little better now.

I also have felt "I can't make it anymore".

I'm just writing this so you know you're not alone.

At one point in my life Tai Chi helped and I want to start doing it again...but I've been saying that for several years.

The thing that helps me the most is staying Present. What I mean by that is - don't try to escape how you feel. If anything, get deeper and deeper into your agony. At first it is excruciatingly painful. But if you can stay with it, something eventually changes, and it isn't so painful.

The thing about depression for me is that there doesn't seem to be anything to "grab onto". It's this nebulous glob of icky crud and you're stuck in it and there's no way out. If there's no way out, you go in. And further in. And describe in detail how it looks.

When you get familiar with the scenery in this icky glob of depressing pain, you sort of find paths through it. I know this probably sounds crazy.

If there is anything at all that you can do to cheer yourself up do it. I don't live near the ocean right now. But if I did, I would have spent every day of the last 2 weeks at the ocean because the ocean always cheers me up. Also the seagulls. I love the way seagulls cry. Anything in nature can be comforting.



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04 Aug 2008, 8:48 pm

alba wrote:

The thing that helps me the most is staying Present. What I mean by that is - don't try to escape how you feel. If anything, get deeper and deeper into your agony. At first it is excruciatingly painful. But if you can stay with it, something eventually changes, and it isn't so painful.

The thing about depression for me is that there doesn't seem to be anything to "grab onto". It's this nebulous glob of icky crud and you're stuck in it and there's no way out. If there's no way out, you go in. And further in. And describe in detail how it looks.

When you get familiar with the scenery in this icky glob of depressing pain, you sort of find paths through it. I know this probably sounds crazy.

This is what I was trying to describe too. It really does help tremendously. I had days in the depths of a profound depression, where I couldn't pour a bowl of cereal out and put milk on it. Correct me if your experience is different Alba, but in mine, it is not a matter of thinking about it, it's exploring the depression through the senses, especially how does it FEEL. Don't push it away and don't feed it, just explore exactly what it is. You will see that it is changing.


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04 Aug 2008, 9:55 pm

She's saying view things as objectively as possible.

Good luck in overcoming this depression, ihtw. I have went through similar episodes. You definitely aren't alone.


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05 Aug 2008, 3:55 am

I'm simply amazed right now at how much this board cares. If only we could "connect" in the real world in such a natural way. Interesting thing about the internet, as "cold" as it might be, the outlet and inlet of information is not obstructed by any "social norms" to follow. I love it.

WonderWoman, reading some of your posts have given me a bit to think on. I've never seriously considered Zen, but am curious now. I don't want to take any of your time, as you've spent so much here already, but the point of view you've shared here has been helpful to a person such as myself in totally different circumstances.


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05 Aug 2008, 9:49 am

-JR wrote:
I'm simply amazed right now at how much this board cares. If only we could "connect" in the real world in such a natural way. Interesting thing about the internet, as "cold" as it might be, the outlet and inlet of information is not obstructed by any "social norms" to follow. I love it.

WonderWoman, reading some of your posts have given me a bit to think on. I've never seriously considered Zen, but am curious now. I don't want to take any of your time, as you've spent so much here already, but the point of view you've shared here has been helpful to a person such as myself in totally different circumstances.


Kool. I don't mean to push it, but when someone is having a really hard time, there is no time to mince words. You have to get to the point, quick.

Zen Mind, Beginners Mind by Suzuki Roshi describes how to sit Zen and some of the meaning of it.

Biofeedback, a.k.a., neurofeedback is a close cousin to Zen. A Zen teacher helped to develop it. If you're not near a biofeedback place, you can order tapes on "Open Focus," to do essentially what biofeedback/neurofeedback/Zen do. Of course, a good Zen teacher gives the "feedback" that you would get with the machine and can help you to recognize the meaning of the experience you have in these practices.


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"Do not think, 'I am alone.'" Sasaki Roshi
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