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cyberdad
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26 May 2022, 2:11 am

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
It's also hard to distinguish between bullies and victims, as most people play both roles at different times in their lives. Bullies have likely been victims, and victims have likely been bullies. Quite often it's simultaneous depending on the context or social pressure.


I think this is poorly understood in general but bullies often normalise bullying as well among their classmates so that on the one hand bullies are enabled by the lack of action of schools, teachers or their classmates but I have seen with my own eyes that even teachers promote bullying (Pepe and I both experienced this when we were in school here in Australia) and that classmates join in bullying and become bullies themselves. Group behaviour makes it hard to pinpoint what makes a bully as I have seen popular erstwhile normal functioning kids turn nasty when they think its ok to pile on the hapless victim. Many of the bullies from school I knew now hold positions of responsibility. I mentioned already that one particularly vile nasty bully who also like to torture and kill animals is now a prominent psychiatrist who is the head of mental health in the state he lives in.


There is a famous psychological study that validates how people can become sociopathic.
It dealt with fake electric shock treatment, but the people who did it didn't know the "victim" was only acting.


Ah yes, the Milgram study. This actually ties in with the point made by Isabella Linton about group behaviour which is the drive/need to conform and be accepted by your peers even to the extent of joining in bullying victims.

Milgram was interested in obedience to an authority figure - he found people were more likely to throw the switch and electrocute a perfect stranger if the person giving them the order was a person of authority/in power.

I think both theories can be intertwined in that a member of a group can feel compelled by their peers to act in a sociopathic manner in order to please.


From memory, I believe the study was trying to explain Nazi obedience (Fuhrerprinzip) during WWII.
I think they got their answer.


Yeah I figured you knew the rationale behind the experiment. BTW the type of obedience that turns erstwhile people into sociopaths is called fatal obedience and requires the person to believe that what the person in authority says (in other words take agency whereby the premise (e.g. jews, gypsies and slavs are inferior) is perceived as legitimate). Once they are cognitively convinced they will then go through with killing another human being as there is also diffusion of responsibility whereby the person is caught (e.g. Nuremberg trials) they point the finger at their superiors as they believe those on charge will accept responsibility for any actions they take. Kind of like a "green card". Unfortunately that excuse didn't work for many Nazis involved with murder because prisoners reported the guards visibly enjoyed torturing and killing which mean't they psychopathically bought wholesale into killings for pleasure.



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26 May 2022, 2:54 am

Just waiting for an article to pop up where that says the shooter was autistic...

What do you want to bet? I'll bet all my money that he was.


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26 May 2022, 4:00 am

cyberdad wrote:
Yeah I figured you knew the rationale behind the experiment. BTW the type of obedience that turns erstwhile people into sociopaths is called fatal obedience and requires the person to believe that what the person in authority says (in other words take agency whereby the premise (e.g. jews, gypsies and slavs are inferior) is perceived as legitimate). Once they are cognitively convinced they will then go through with killing another human being as there is also diffusion of responsibility whereby the person is caught (e.g. Nuremberg trials) they point the finger at their superiors as they believe those on charge will accept responsibility for any actions they take. Kind of like a "green card". Unfortunately that excuse didn't work for many Nazis involved with murder because prisoners reported the guards visibly enjoyed torturing and killing which mean't they psychopathically bought wholesale into killings for pleasure.


Not all concentration camp guards were psychopaths, but evidently, some were.
You also can't generalise to include all German military personnel.
They estimate about 4% (From memory, don't quote me) of the entire human population would be classified as a psychopath if the environment "sparks" their genetic predilection to become one.


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Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

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Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
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cyberdad
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26 May 2022, 6:04 am

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Yeah I figured you knew the rationale behind the experiment. BTW the type of obedience that turns erstwhile people into sociopaths is called fatal obedience and requires the person to believe that what the person in authority says (in other words take agency whereby the premise (e.g. jews, gypsies and slavs are inferior) is perceived as legitimate). Once they are cognitively convinced they will then go through with killing another human being as there is also diffusion of responsibility whereby the person is caught (e.g. Nuremberg trials) they point the finger at their superiors as they believe those on charge will accept responsibility for any actions they take. Kind of like a "green card". Unfortunately that excuse didn't work for many Nazis involved with murder because prisoners reported the guards visibly enjoyed torturing and killing which mean't they psychopathically bought wholesale into killings for pleasure.


Not all concentration camp guards were psychopaths, but evidently, some were.
You also can't generalise to include all German military personnel.
They estimate about 4% (From memory, don't quote me) of the entire human population would be classified as a psychopath if the environment "sparks" their genetic predilection to become one.


I didn't say all German military personnel, I was talking about camp guards (although I suspect 99% of the German military were aware of the camps and Einzgruppen rounding up and shooting jews and gypsies).

An interesting side note is that many of the female guards who brutalised prisoners with dogs, sticks and other weapons were let off and allowed back in the community as the perception was women were not capable of doing these things (despite the protestations of prisoners). One famous case of a guard involved in brutal crimes but freed was Herta Bothe.



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26 May 2022, 7:07 am

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
It's also hard to distinguish between bullies and victims, as most people play both roles at different times in their lives. Bullies have likely been victims, and victims have likely been bullies. Quite often it's simultaneous depending on the context or social pressure.


I think this is poorly understood in general but bullies often normalise bullying as well among their classmates so that on the one hand bullies are enabled by the lack of action of schools, teachers or their classmates but I have seen with my own eyes that even teachers promote bullying (Pepe and I both experienced this when we were in school here in Australia) and that classmates join in bullying and become bullies themselves. Group behaviour makes it hard to pinpoint what makes a bully as I have seen popular erstwhile normal functioning kids turn nasty when they think its ok to pile on the hapless victim. Many of the bullies from school I knew now hold positions of responsibility. I mentioned already that one particularly vile nasty bully who also like to torture and kill animals is now a prominent psychiatrist who is the head of mental health in the state he lives in.


There is a famous psychological study that validates how people can become sociopathic.
It dealt with fake electric shock treatment, but the people who did it didn't know the "victim" was only acting.


Not everyone defaults to authority .... i think it has much to do with up bringing . Was never inclined towards violence .... Grew up with family watching stuff on TV like the three stoooges and things like that And just would leave the room while other family members just laughed as they bonked each other about . And one fellow was always getting picked on .. i couldn't stand it , it was just mean to me . became less and less opt to want to watch TV ...... it took much work on me to get me to defend myself . Then had occassion to learn that my mother did not have a normal maternal gene in her.
By personal experience . She was not remotely protective of me. by example learned that authority
figures on the average /ever , do not have peoples well being in mind. But did learn that i never wanted to be like that. It did not take me long to figure out that my birth family seemed abit off .
People in authority positions seem to expect respect .but miss the idea ,
( respect is not given unless it is earned.) one might expect this to be true.


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temp1234
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26 May 2022, 10:05 am

I mixed up this shooting with the other that happened recently. Living in the USA must be scary.



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26 May 2022, 1:22 pm

Joe90 wrote:
Just waiting for an article to pop up where that says the shooter was autistic...

What do you want to bet? I'll bet all my money that he was.

You can relax
What we know about the gunman and victims of the Uvalde shooting
Quote:
Abbott said Ramos didn't have a mental health diagnosis


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26 May 2022, 1:34 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
Just waiting for an article to pop up where that says the shooter was autistic...

What do you want to bet? I'll bet all my money that he was.

You can relax
What we know about the gunman and victims of the Uvalde shooting
Quote:
Abbott said Ramos didn't have a mental health diagnosis


Yes but usually it takes a few days or even weeks before a report about the shooter's autism. You mark my words, by this time next week someone will share a report saying that they've found out he was autistic by his medical records or his family or whatever. Where's the betting thread? Because if there was one then I'm going to win lots of money for betting on this.


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27 May 2022, 5:30 am

Pepe wrote:
Quote:
Piers Morgan blasts claims 'more armed guards' will prevent school shootings as he laments 'absurdity' of US inaction on gun control

The broadcaster lashed out at claims the massacre in Texas could have been prevented by more armed guards as he interviewed the mother of a six-year-old boy killed in the Sandy Hook tragedy in an emotionally-charged segment.
Charlie CoëCommissioning Editor
3 min read
May 26, 2022


https://www.skynews.com.au/world-news/p ... erallPos=1


am sorry but nowhere in this link does it examine the societal impacts of bullying and the environment situations that cause it to happen over and over again..
But it does include that this 18 yr old posted his actions on a media platform ...we already
have national methods that sort and sniff all media traffic for terrorist type info. WHY was this not
employed ? We have NSA , CIA and other gov. orgs that watch this stuff . Would it not best serve this country to employ these branches of government to watch for this kind of stuff, protecting society.
What sort of games are being played at the cost of our children and people..???


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27 May 2022, 6:46 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
Just waiting for an article to pop up where that says the shooter was autistic...

What do you want to bet? I'll bet all my money that he was.

You can relax
What we know about the gunman and victims of the Uvalde shooting
Quote:
Abbott said Ramos didn't have a mental health diagnosis


Wouldn't he be considered a sociopath?


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


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27 May 2022, 8:20 am

Jakki wrote:
But it does include that this 18 yr old posted his actions on a media platform ...we already
have national methods that sort and sniff all media traffic for terrorist type info. WHY was this not
employed ?

I don't have anything about the general why, but in this specific instance what could be done from private messages posted just 30 minutes before the thing and then in the middle of doing the thing?
In this situation the timing would require there already be law enforcement in place before the posts were even made.

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/25 ... ng-uvalde/

Quote:
The governor said the 18-year-old gunman shared each step of his rampage on Facebook, but the social media giant says they were private text messages — not public posts.


Quote:
About 30 minutes before he entered Robb Elementary School, the 18-year-old gunman shared messages through Facebook that he was going to shoot his grandmother, Gov. Greg Abbott told reporters. He then shot her in the face, confirming that in a Facebook message, Abbott said.


Quote:
Neither Facebook nor authorities said Wednesday who the shooter was messaging, but CNN reported the gunman sent messages to a 15-year-old girl he met online, telling her that he "just shot my grandma in her head" and planned to "shoot up" an elementary school.


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28 May 2022, 6:35 am

to borrow a page from "Minority Report," we need a department of pre-crime.



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28 May 2022, 2:37 pm

Not a precrime dept but the government here to use the technology it already has in place .
Does anyone think that our suveillence satellite system could not read a license plate from space .
that was being bragged about ten years ago .. And how many more Satellites have gone up since then And if you include Our capacity to read all electronic communications throughout the world.
By a system called Eschelon . Over 15 yrs ago . That several nations of the world made public
And you could use a meta crawler program by google thst could search all the different countries at once for key words applying to this , And i did and was apalled about its existence . And copied much of this into my older outdated computers , i have had. Since late 80s through early 90s . Now searches on that system produce nothing about that system . The world we live in is far more advanced than people in power would have you know . Just look at google earth . Then imagine the law enforcement version of that . When you combine these technologies , it would almost appear that you might have a precrime ability. . These systems operate at light speed . So why does noone respond when this info shows up .?
Are we in the business of horrifying people out of their civil rights,or do we need to keep mass numbers of police and their giant budget of support legal entities employed ?
FEAR is the absolute best way to control a population .
But i am just speculating here about things , i have learned of since the 1970s :ninja:


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magz
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28 May 2022, 2:45 pm

auntblabby wrote:
to borrow a page from "Minority Report," we need a department of pre-crime.
In a way... just the interventions need to be very different in nature from the post-crime ones.


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28 May 2022, 4:19 pm

Speaking of guns, crime, and interventions,

Armed female bystander kills man firing at party in West Virginia
Published 13 hours ago
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61615236
"
A US woman has fatally shot a man who opened fire on a crowd of people with a semi-automatic rifle in Charleston, West Virginia.

Dennis Butler, a 37-year-old with an extensive criminal history, was killed after he targeted a group of around 40 people attending a birthday party.

Police spokesman Tony Hazelett said the woman's quick reaction saved lives and may have prevented a mass shooting.

It comes amid a national debate over guns after a school shooting in Texas.
...
Mr Hazelett told a news conference that the woman who fired back did not have any law enforcement background. She has not been identified.

"She's just a member of the community who was carrying her weapon lawfully," he said. "And instead of running from the threat she engaged with the threat and saved several lives."

The woman remained at the scene after the shooting, and is co-operating with investigators.

Charges will not be filed against her, police added.

Butler was found dead at the scene from multiple gunshot wounds, police said.

Mr Hazelett said it is not yet clear how Butler obtained the weapon - which he was not legally allowed to carry as a convicted felon.
"

and,

Court records: Man killed in Charleston shooting had extensive criminal history
by BOB AARON Thursday, May 26th 2022
https://wchstv.com/news/local/man-kille ... wva-and-pa
"
CHARLESTON, W.Va. (WCHS) — A man killed after police said he opened fire at a Charleston apartment complex Wednesday night had an extensive criminal past in both Pennsylvania and West Virginia.

Court records show that while Dennis Butler was frequently arrested in Kanawha County, the most serious charges against him went away when witnesses failed to show up.

Police say Dennis Butler was shot to death by an armed citizen when he opened fire with an AR-15 assault rifle at the Vista View Apartment complex.

Court records indicate as a convicted felon Butler was not entitled to own any guns. He was also wanted by deputies on a misdemeanor charge of transferring and receiving stolen goods from earlier this year. Kanawha magistrate court records show some 20 arrests for local charges.
"
and,

It even made the news in India;
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... 36303.html

and,

Already political commentary on it here in US,
https://anthonyblogan.com/woman-shoots- ... -virginia/
"
This case is a prime example of why law-abiding citizens have the right to bear arms. In the wake of the Uvalde, Texas shooting many people are asking legislators to ban the sale of “semi-automatic” weapons. This ban would include nearly every weapon on the market outside of pump-action shotguns, revolvers, and bolt-action rifles. The term “semi-automatic” simply refers to a magazine-fed weapon that shoots once per trigger pull. If these weapons are banned from stores, it would only affect law-abiding citizens. Criminals would get their guns just the same way that convicted felon Dennis Butler did. Illegally. And if (when) criminals decide to engage in unlawful, deadly behavior then citizens would be completely vulnerable and unable to defend themselves.

There is always the option of calling the police when a mass shooting takes place. Recent events show us that the police may not be willing or able to protect everyone all of the time. The best thing to do is simply follow the founding fathers of the United States’ lead and uphold the Second Amendment.
"


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28 May 2022, 8:14 pm

many people lack the proper mentality to handle weapons without hurting themselves or the wrong people. even cops screw up more than most people are aware. so it is IMHO not a sound public policy to encourage people to arm themselves and have at it. if only our nation recognized our children as the precious resource they are and stop squandering their future by being skinflints now.